Is Wenger stale or is it us?

[Marc Overmars]

I just don't ever feel a sense of confidence anymore when we take control of our own destiny. I felt the tide was turning after we did exceptionally well to overhaul Spurs who I thought were out of sight, but then once we got into a comfort zone we somehow nearly managed to throw it away. I just wouldn't bet on us to see a job through, that burden of pressure is only going to grow as each trophyless season wears on.

[IBK]

I just don't ever feel a sense of confidence anymore when we take control of our own destiny. I felt the tide was turning after we did exceptionally well to overhaul Spurs who I thought were out of sight, but then once we got into a comfort zone we somehow nearly managed to throw it away. I just wouldn't bet on us to see a job through, that burden of pressure is only going to grow as each trophyless season wears on.

Well, Rome wasn't built in a day. Our team did better last season than it has done in the past. Yes, we wobbled when it was squeaky bum time (as did almost all the teams around us, BTW) - but as I say a lot more factors than simply mental strength were involved.

[Power n Glory]

Well, Rome wasn't built in a day. Our team did better last season than it has done in the past. Yes, we wobbled when it was squeaky bum time (as did almost all the teams around us, BTW) - but as I say a lot more factors than simply mental strength were involved.

By margins and a great deal of that improvement was down to RVP and his leadership. There were other influential players as well, but we're looking at two steps back when we lose him this season. Same goes for Theo. Last seasons minor improvment just wasn't enough.

[IBK]

By margins and a great deal of that improvement was down to RVP and his leadership. There were other influential players as well, but we're looking at two steps back when we lose him this season. Same goes for Theo. Last seasons minor improvment just wasn't enough.

Hmmm - yes RVP seemed like a good leader, but instinct says that a player who has behaved like he has so soon after the season ended may not have been quite the knight in shining armour that he seemed to be. Of course losing your captain and goal machine will be a blow, but it might also restore a bit of balance to our approach.

[Power n Glory]

Hmmm - yes RVP seemed like a good leader, but instinct says that a player who has behaved like he has so soon after the season ended may not have been quite the knight in shining armour that he seemed to be. Of course losing your captain and goal machine will be a blow, but it might also restore a bit of balance to our approach.

'Seemed'...he was. We all said it, the players said he was important and we can't say otherwise now that he's leaving. It's wishful thinking and sour grapes. The same was said about Cesc. That we'd have a more balanced team if he left. It didn't balance us, just weakened the middle and we lost our fluidity in play. We're losing another good player and it's the reason why we're having this discussion anyway. We lose key players every year and every year people always suggest we'll do better without them or downplay their contribution to the team. Lack of stability is killing us.

But that's a dead conversation. Now, it's about how we handle the loss of our key striker and captain and what Wenger will do differently this season.

[IBK]

'Seemed'...he was. We all said it, the players said he was important and we can't say otherwise now that he's leaving. It's wishful thinking and sour grapes. The same was said about Cesc. That we'd have a more balanced team if he left. It didn't balance us, just weakened the middle and we lost our fluidity in play. We're losing another good player and it's the reason why we're having this discussion anyway. We lose key players every year and every year people always suggest we'll do better without them or downplay their contribution to the team. Lack of stability is killing us.

But that's a dead conversation. Now, it's about how we handle the loss of our key striker and captain and what Wenger will do differently this season.

We do have a more balanced team since Cesc left. I'm not trying to downplay RVP's loss - of course losing our best players weakens the team - and we are trading a prolific goal scorer for unknowns. What I am questioning is whether, given his ambivalence towards our team, he was as wonderful a captain as his rep. I think that's a fair question to ask, given the circumstances.

And it aways mystifies me when fans who are negative towards want-away players are accused of sour grapes. What are we supposed to do - support them and praise them to the rooftops?

[Power n Glory]

We do have a more balanced team since Cesc left. I'm not trying to downplay RVP's loss - of course losing our best players weakens the team - and we are trading a prolific goal scorer for unknowns. What I am questioning is whether, given his ambivalence towards our team, he was as wonderful a captain as his rep. I think that's a fair question to ask, given the circumstances.

And it aways mystifies me when fans who are negative towards want-away players are accused of sour grapes. What are we supposed to do - support them and praise them to the rooftops?

Be objective at least. You don't have to sing his praises but to talk as if he won't be missed is silly. Cesc and Nasri were missed last season and if we had them in the squad, we'd have been much stronger. There is no denying that. Them leaving didn't balance us at all. We've never had a season where Cesc and RVP are in great form all season. We've never had a season where we've got workers in the middle, as well as creative flair players, plus pacy wingers on the flanks and strong defenders, plus wingbacks and a good keeper.

If we'd have kept them, we'd have had a strong and balanced team where we'd have cover and balance in all areas for once!

[Marc Overmars]

Well, Rome wasn't built in a day. Our team did better last season than it has done in the past. Yes, we wobbled when it was squeaky bum time (as did almost all the teams around us, BTW) - but as I say a lot more factors than simply mental strength were involved.

Sure - but then things like injuries, fatigue etc have to be dealt with, it's just a fact of life. Think of the amount of pressure and strain we'd be under if involved in the closing stages of a title race, how would we cope? Evidence suggests probably not very well. United didn't have their best (and arguably the leagues best) centre back for the whole season but they managed to take it to the wire. I know many on here believe our squad to be just as good as theirs, so why are we always well off their pace?

There is cause for optimism with how we turned over Spurs but I do think we still have it all to prove.

[IBK]

Sure - but then things like injuries, fatigue etc have to be dealt with, it's just a fact of life. Think of the amount of pressure and strain we'd be under if involved in the closing stages of a title race, how would we cope? Evidence suggests probably not very well. United didn't have their best (and arguably the leagues best) centre back for the whole season but they managed to take it to the wire. I know many on here believe our squad to be just as good as theirs, so why are we always well off their pace?

There is cause for optimism with how we turned over Spurs but I do think we still have it all to prove.

Fatigue/injuries do have to be coped with, but for season after season we seem to have it a lot worse in terms of lengthof lay off and injuries to key players than anyone else. United might have been without Vidic - but we had how many defenders missing at various times? Remember that United, Citeh; Spurs; Newcastle all fecked up in their own ways at the sharp end of the season. Not just us.

[Flavs]

Also, not wishing to sound like Joker but RvP is over rated