Vermaelen is a terrible defender

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Originally Posted by Wiltord's Winter Wonderland

eh?

coaching and managing players isnt the managers responsibility? :lol:

so what do we pay him £7m a year for, to sit in a dugout for 2 hours every saturday? :lol:

and what do you mean 'at his age'? he isnt a boxer he's a footballer. its never too late to learn. footballers can adapt to different styles and tactics week on week. if you coach vermaelen how to approach the opposition correctly and maximise the opportunity of winning the ball then he'll improve. you dont just give up on players if they make mistakes do you? you try and help them improve. try to correct their flaws. they learn new things everyday in training. its a continual learning process.

the problem at our club is that the learning process is nowhere to be seen because wenger focuses on attack. we saw an improvement in vermaelen and other defenders at the beginning of the season when the players admitted bould had a huge influence in training. now its gone back to shit. because wengers gone awol.

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We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think you can coach a 27yr old defender to suddenly start defending in a completely different way than what he's been doing for the best part of 10 years. And age is an issue. At 12 a player can be influenced a lot more than at 27.

Sure I guess there are exceptions to the rule. But it tends to be the really top players that can adapt and make big improvements - that's what makes them top players.

I don't have a problem with the coaching of Verm. I have a problem with Wenger thinking he's good enough.

If you think players can be so heavily influenced by coaching I guess you think that there's a coach out there that can turn Gervinho into Drogba????

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Originally Posted by Wiltord's Winter Wonderland

eh?

coaching and managing players isnt the managers responsibility? :lol:

so what do we pay him £7m a year for, to sit in a dugout for 2 hours every saturday? :lol:

and what do you mean 'at his age'? he isnt a boxer he's a footballer. its never too late to learn. footballers can adapt to different styles and tactics week on week. if you coach vermaelen how to approach the opposition correctly and maximise the opportunity of winning the ball then he'll improve. you dont just give up on players if they make mistakes do you? you try and help them improve. try to correct their flaws. they learn new things everyday in training. its a continual learning process.

the problem at our club is that the learning process is nowhere to be seen because wenger focuses on attack. we saw an improvement in vermaelen and other defenders at the beginning of the season when the players admitted bould had a huge influence in training. now its gone back to shit. because wengers gone awol.

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Tbf Clichy is still woeful at city. its just easy to look good when you have better team mates. Here he enver had that so it was easier to see he was poor. There was so much hype for him from fans, cause we thought we got one over cashley when we did not.

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Originally Posted by Grebbo

We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think you can coach a 27yr old defender to suddenly start defending in a completely different way than what he's been doing for the best part of 10 years. And age is an issue. At 12 a player can be influenced a lot more than at 27.

Sure I guess there are exceptions to the rule. But it tends to be the really top players that can adapt and make big improvements - that's what makes them top players.

I don't have a problem with the coaching of Verm. I have a problem with Wenger thinking he's good enough.

If you think players can be so heavily influenced by coaching I guess you think that there's a coach out there that can turn Gervinho into Drogba????

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but he doesnt need big improvements. thats the point.

you cant coach titus bramble into being a top defender, i agree, because the skills base he started off with is considerably less than the attributable base TV has and always will be. but TV has the attributes to be an even better defender than what he is right now, he just isnt being coached into how to do that.

he isnt being told what his mistakes are, he isnt able to rectify them in training and he isnt being guided into right from wrong.

according to your theory he's hit the roof in terms of ability but surely that contradicts the whole point of coaching? e.g. to improve players and coach them away from their mistakes? we all admit he makes mistakes so surely if he is coached by a proper manager he'll be able to rectify them and instantly turn into a better defender?

and as for the last point, you're comparing a winger to a world class striker. gervinho has the potential to be a decent winger but once again, is being let free to do what he wants by the free market fundamentalist in charge. if he was coached better, taught the art of dribbling, how to take players on, how to shoot etc, he'd improve tremendously.

you cant have a go at your dog for shitting on your carpet when you fail to let him know the toilet is outside.

He has been off form for sure but he's better than Kos, Djourou and Toto. We have no other option.

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Originally Posted by Olivier's xmas twist

Tbf Clichy is still woeful at city. its just easy to look good when you have better team mates. Here he enver had that so it was easier to see he was poor. There was so much hype for him from fans, cause we thought we got one over cashley when we did not.

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maybe but i dont see the constant bad passes, constant shit crosses, constant freezing up at vital moments that he had here. he's obviously been coached better at city although as you say, admittedly he's still not the best.

he's doing considerably well though seeing as he has nasri in front of him who does no tracking back whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by Olivier's xmas twist

Tbf Clichy is still woeful at city. its just easy to look good when you have better team mates. Here he enver had that so it was easier to see he was poor. There was so much hype for him from fans, cause we thought we got one over cashley when we did not.

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i know one or two city fans who are no big fans of clichy. he is not crucial to their defence and struggles to get ahead of Kolarov at the best of times.

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Originally Posted by Wiltord's Winter Wonderland

but he doesnt need big improvements. thats the point.

you cant coach titus bramble into being a top defender, i agree, because the skills base he started off with is considerably less than the attributable base TV has and always will be. but TV has the attributes to be an even better defender than what he is right now, he just isnt being coached into how to do that.

he isnt being told what his mistakes are, he isnt able to rectify them in training and he isnt being guided into right from wrong.

according to your theory he's hit the roof in terms of ability but surely that contradicts the whole point of coaching? e.g. to improve players and coach them away from their mistakes? we all admit he makes mistakes so surely if he is coached by a proper manager he'll be able to rectify them and instantly turn into a better defender?

and as for the last point, you're comparing a winger to a world class striker. gervinho has the potential to be a decent winger but once again, is being let free to do what he wants by the free market fundamentalist in charge. if he was coached better, taught the art of dribbling, how to take players on, how to shoot etc, he'd improve tremendously.

you cant have a go at your dog for shitting on your carpet when you fail to let him know the toilet is outside.

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I don't think the dog analogy is the greatest one to use tbh.

Do you think SAF coached Cronaldo into the second best player in the world or do you think Cronaldo did it himself?

I think top players have a certain level of football intelligence. They improve themselves, they are not coached. You cannot think it's as simple as telling Verm what his faults are and he'll improve?? I'm not having that! He knows what his faults are, the world and his wife know what his faults are, he simply cannot change his ways because he is not a good enough footballer.

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Originally Posted by Wiltord's Winter Wonderland

maybe but i dont see the constant bad passes, constant shit crosses, constant freezing up at vital moments that he had here. he's obviously been coached better at city although as you say, admittedly he's still not the best.

he's doing considerably well though seeing as he has nasri in front of him who does no tracking back whatsoever.

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Did you see Clichy helping to set up Manures winner at the weekend?

Clichy is average for City and he was average for us.

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Originally Posted by Grebbo

I don't think the dog analogy is the greatest one to use tbh.

Do you think SAF coached Cronaldo into the second best player in the world or do you think Cronaldo did it himself?

I think top players have a certain level of football intelligence. They improve themselves, they are not coached. You cannot think it's as simple as telling Verm what his faults are and he'll improve?? I'm not having that! He knows what his faults are, the world and his wife know what his faults are, he simply cannot change his ways because he is not a good enough footballer.

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neither was the gervinho to drogba one but you still used it !

and surely you're not denying that SAF helped turn ronaldo into the player he is? ronaldo even admits himself that fergie played a massive role in his development. if ronaldo had come to arsenal you know full well he wouldnt be half the player he is right now because of wengers poor management skills. i mean if theo went united he would be twice the player he is because fergie would have taught him under the correct coaches and right management skills.

it needs a balance really, a player with potential needs good management and coaching to improve and rectify his mistakes. that makes him a better player. its common sense logic so im not sure why you're deciding to adamantly oppose it. at arsenal the coaching lets us down so players will always be susceptible to mistakes.

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Originally Posted by Grebbo

Did you see Clichy helping to set up Manures winner at the weekend?

Clichy is average for City and he was average for us.

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clichy was shit for us and decent for city.

you dont play in a league winning team if you're shit.