Summer Transfer Speculation and Shit.

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Originally Posted by Letters

Yes. That was in response to a point about him not signing established players and preferring to sign younger players being 'a stage'.
I never said he didn't have any money at all, but we didn't have the money to go out and by a Sanchez or an Ozil.
Now we do, and we have.

You always do this. Wilfully misrepresent my actual views, attack things I've not said and then basically call me a liar when I correct your misunderstanding.
Pretty lazy straw-man stuff.

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Yes you did. Are you crazy! :lol:

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It was never a 'stage'. We didn't have the money. Now we do, he's spending it.

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What the heck does that say?

If anyone is lazy, it's you take quotes out of context and I often wonder if you read the whole post. We hit the point about established players as well and I clearly said we had that the money to spend on established players with my examples and then you conceded that point and said the following.

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Wenger probably does prefer to develop players than buy them off the shelf. I would have thought any manager would. Surely it's more satisfying to develop a Fabregas rather than buy one off the shelf. I never understand why spending £100m of a multi-billionaire's spare change is regarded as 'ambitious'.

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And you still haven't answered my question. You wummed your way out with that silly smiley.

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I imagine developing your own player is more satisfying for a manger but should a manager be putting his own satisfaction and ideals above the needs of his own players, the fans and club? Does it outweigh the satisfaction of winning silverware?

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I haven't misrepresented any of what you've said Letters. You made a short blunt statement about our financial position. I corrected you on that. You elaborated your point. I corrected you again. You then concede that Wenger does properly prefer to develop young players which is the point Herbert was originally eluding to and what I was commenting on. There was in fact a stage where he'd prefer to take £30m and spread spending on young and undiscovered talent that he could develop.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

it's you take quotes out of context.

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Which is exactly what you've just done to me. I've explained what that was a reply to and the context.
Can't be arsed reading the rest of your post, you're a WUM :good:

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Originally Posted by Letters

Which is exactly what you've just done to me. I've explained what that was a reply to and the context.
Can't be arsed reading the rest of your post, you're a WUM :good:

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It's ironic, this seems to be your answer to everything, the minute you get yourself into a hole you can't get out of you post stuff like this.

He was clearly not wumming.

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Originally Posted by Letters

Which is exactly what you've just done to me. I've explained what that was a reply to and the context.
Can't be arsed reading the rest of your post, you're a WUM :good:

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:pal: It's funny how your memory has all of a sudden gone hazy. You ducked out of the argument last week because you admitted we had money to spend on established players during our barren run because Wenger prefers developing players.

Yes, we have money to spend now I can understand that point and not up for debate.

I've used quotes from your argument just to keep the page count low but also posted a link to where the debate started so you can re read what was said....but since your so lazy.....

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Originally Posted by Özim

It's ironic, this seems to be your answer to everything, the minute you get yourself into a hole you can't get out of you post stuff like this.

He was clearly not wumming.

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He knows I wasn't wumming but he's wound himself up and is frustrated because he doesn't have an answer. He stops reading posts and won't answer anything when he gets stuck. It's petulant.

Of course we didn't have an unlimited amount of money to play with during our barren run and we'd often sell to raise funds. But with the funds raised we could have bought maybe one or two established players a season instead of placing all bets on young unknowns developing into superstars. I understand the strategy and the conditions we were under but it was the wrong way to go. It costs us players and silverware because players like RVP and Fabregas could never understand why after losing a big name we wouldn't reinvest in someone that's more established. We can't repeat the same mistakes.

Children, Children....play nicely.
My own contention is that yes he does (by his own admission) prefer developing young players rather than buying established stars. But I think the financial constraints also meant that rightly or wrongly he felt the established stars he could afford were no better than what he already had.

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

Children, Children....play nicely.
My own contention is that yes he does (by his own admission) prefer developing young players rather than buying established stars. But I think the financial constraints also meant that rightly or wrongly he felt the established stars he could afford were no better than what he already had.

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We needed a mix and to strike a right balance. Developing Theo, RVP, Cesc...they were good investments. But leaning so heavy on youth development meant we lost out on silverware and players like RVP and Cesc lost faith in the manager’s strategy. Denilson shouldn’t have been anywhere near the first team and he persisted with Eboue at right wing for a long time as well. Costly decisions and there were plenty more. What made things more frustrating for me was hearing Wenger say year after year that we had ‘plenty of attacker/midfielders etc’ and name players like Denilson, Eboue or even Bendy as viable options only to realise that they weren’t good enough too late in the day. We passed up on signing good players for this lot and I worry we might be seeing the same with this Vidal situation. Ramsey and Wilshere need to develop into seriously good players if we’re passing on such a player. Same applies to Giroud/Walcott/Welbeck if we don’t sign a forward. At least this time around the players he’s reserving a spot for have some actual talent.

There seems to be some confusion here; by explaining what I believe is Wengers rationale there is the perception that I'm endorsing it....I don't....either in the past or now.
Despite his Lazarus like resurrection into a decent player im still not a massive fan of Ramsey....nor do I really care for Wilshere that much, they can never both a) be fit and b) in form at the same time so I've been massively in favour of selling one of them for years.

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

There seems to be some confusion here; by explaining what I believe is Wengers rationale there is the perception that I'm endorsing it....I don't....either in the past or now.
Despite his Lazarus like resurrection into a decent player im still not a massive fan of Ramsey....nor do I really care for Wilshere that much, they can never both a) be fit and b) in form at the same time so I've been massively in favour of selling one of them for years.

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No, I know you don't endorse it. I'm just elaborating on your point (ranting) on what I think we needed at the time and bringing it back to where we were with the original conversation. I can understand Wenger's rationale sometimes but he just goes a step too far sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

There seems to be some confusion here; by explaining what I believe is Wengers rationale there is the perception that I'm endorsing it....I don't....either in the past or now.
Despite his Lazarus like resurrection into a decent player im still not a massive fan of Ramsey....nor do I really care for Wilshere that much, they can never both a) be fit and b) in form at the same time so I've been massively in favour of selling one of them for years.

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It would never work with both of them in the same team, one of them has to be content sitting on the bench or find another team to get more playing time. :coffee:

On one hand it worked ok on Saturday, out of the two Wilshere had the better game but Ramsey was quite tidy and didn't ignore his defensive responsibilities.
But in the main I agree I think we'd leave ourselves too susceptible to counter attack playing both of them.

To my mind Wenger doesnt even want to compete, he purposely handicaps himself with cheap inferior players, simply because he thinks he can and always does get away with it. Coming 4th means you just need to be better than 15 teams that we are intrinsically better than. When he comes 4th he takes the moral league title given that every one above him spent massively more. Talk of us having no money is a smokescreen because we have a bank cash surplus of more than 200m. That simply didnt materialise in 1 or 2 years but was amassed over 8 years of underfunding the team and ironically overpaying on salaries for the same.

He wont compete because at the top end the battle is fierce and requires a level of aptitude and rutlessness, Wenger simply doesnt have. We are in the twilight zone with this manager, purgatory with seemingly no end. Probably another 5 years more now, given the latest vote of endorsement by Gazidis.

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Originally Posted by Globalgunner

To my mind Wenger doesnt even want to compete, he purposely handicaps himself with cheap inferior players, simply because he thinks he can and always does get away with it. Coming 4th means you just need to be better than 15 teams that we are intrinsically better than. When he comes 4th he takes the moral league title given that every one above him spent massively more. Talk of us having no money is a smokescreen because we have a bank cash surplus of more than 200m. That simply didnt materialise in 1 or 2 years but was amassed over 8 years of underfunding the team and ironically overpaying on salaries for the same.

He wont compete because at the top end the battle is fierce and requires a level of aptitude and rutlessness, Wenger simply doesnt have. We are in the twilight zone with this manager, purgatory with seemingly no end. Probably another 5 years more now, given the latest vote of endorsement by Gazidis.

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Yes I might buy your argument if he hadn't won the title with us three times, questioning his ability to take us further is one thing and I think even the most ardent card carrying Wenger knows best has doubts about that.
His desire to win? No I don't think that's fair, whilst the 4th place trophy remark wasn't exactly anything Arsenal fans wanted to hear the no1 priority was to keep the revenues of champions league qualification coming in. This is not a man with a taste for decadent living, he doesn't need the money he gets so the only reason he's still in football is because he believes he can win big.

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

Yes I might buy your argument if he hadn't won the title with us three times, questioning his ability to take us further is one thing and I think even the most ardent card carrying Wenger knows best has doubts about that.
His desire to win? No I don't think that's fair, whilst the 4th place trophy remark wasn't exactly anything Arsenal fans wanted to hear the no1 priority was to keep the revenues of champions league qualification coming in. This is not a man with a taste for decadent living, he doesn't need the money he gets so the only reason he's still in football is because he believes he can win big.

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He lost his will to win after it became too hard, post Chelsea/Abramovic and moreso when Mourinho arrived, add Abu dhabi City into the equation plus Fergies relentless will to win. its easy to see why he receded into the safety of 4th place. Who else is competing there? Spurs, Pool. only fleetingly. The thing that motivates Wenger to keep on managing is what he himself has confessed. There is simply nothing else in his life. Getting paid like a CL winner is only an affirmation of his self worth. If he didnt care about the money he could have taken lower wages during our so called broke period. Every manager he likes to compare himself to has won the CL, most 2 times each, Wenger gets schooled every time in the last 16. It can only get worse im afraid. If you cant crack the CL with the squad of 2000_2004. You wont with a bunch of Wilsheres and Ramseys plus Giroud as your goal getter.

Nah

Yeh - a man with a will to win doesn't buy Sonogo when we were screaming out for a proper strike & still are

General mutterings around the media suggest we are after Benzema but we won't get him this season and will have to wait until next. Hopefully that's speculation rather than truth. But if true it would confirm Wenger as a dinosaur who has completely lost touch with modern football. You don't have to like the modern game but if you want to compete in it then you have to accept certain realities.

A gap year when we are supposed to be driving on to a genuine title challenge would be destructive. So great, you get your man next season. But what if Alexis or Ozil has had to carry the team in the meantime, played blinders but still end up with fuck all to show for it - what do they say when clubs who inhabit the modern game come knocking? And what if Benzema isn't available next year, after all? Wait for his kid to grow up? sort of like a gap era?

No time to waste, there's a title and CL to win and if we're genuinely in it to win it then get the chequebook out and improve the squad so we stand a chance of achieving it.

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Arturo Vidal is joining Bayern Munich after his club, Juventus, agreed a €37m (£25.9m) fee for the midfielder with a further £2.1m in add-ons. The Chilean midfielder has agreed a four-year deal worth £90,000 a week and will leave Turin after four years and four Serie A titles.

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£90K? Less than a third of what fat boy shrek steals? Everything was right about this deal, I can't see a single reason as to why he's not having a medical at the Emirates right now. Other than Wenger being fast asleep at the wheel.

Guess who Juve are after? Draxler.

Wenger zzzzzzzzzz (mutter mutter) zzzzzzzzzzzz (we will do it if Jesus Christ becomes available) zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, yawn, stretch, "Sacré bleu, I had zis little bit terrifying dream where I was spending money!"

Meanwhile.

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In other news pertaining to towering strikers, Arsène Wenger is believed to have borrowed the kitchen scales from the training ground canteen, all the better to “weigh up” a bid for Manchester City’s Bosnian goal-getter Edin Dzeko. Wenger is also understood to be interested in signing Borussia Dortmund’s 26-year-old forward Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang, but the Bundesliga outfit say their £30m-rated Gabon international is not for sale.

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"How much for Aubameyang?" - "He's not for sale!" - "How much?" - "He's not for sale!" - "OK then, but one more question... How much for Aubameyang?" - "He's still not for sale!" - "Fuck it, let's just scrape Dzeko up and smear him on the Emirates, cheap and nasty."

And:

Theo wants £100K per week (which in modern terms is not excessive) and he's prepared to let his negotiations drag on if need be. If we aren't signing a new striker and we are also prepared to let Theo's negotiations drag on then somebody needs shooting.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

And:

Theo wants £100K per week (which in modern terms is not excessive) and he's prepared to let his negotiations drag on if need be. If we aren't signing a new striker and we are also prepared to let Theo's negotiations drag on then somebody needs shooting.

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I thought he was already on 100k a week?

It's a lot of money to pay someone who can run fast. Wonder if Hector can ask for £110,000 a week coz he's quicker & a better finisher.

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Originally Posted by Dein-machine

It's a lot of money to pay someone who can run fast. Wonder if Hector can ask for £110,000 a week coz he's quicker & a better finisher.

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Everything is relative, Diaby was on 60k a week to keep people company in the treatment room

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

Everything is relative, Diaby was on 60k a week to keep people company in the treatment room

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Stop exaggerating FFS!

It was 70K

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

£90K? Less than a third of what fat boy shrek steals? Everything was right about this deal, I can't see a single reason as to why he's not having a medical at the Emirates right now. Other than Wenger being fast asleep at the wheel.

Guess who Juve are after? Draxler.

Wenger zzzzzzzzzz (mutter mutter) zzzzzzzzzzzz (we will do it if Jesus Christ becomes available) zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, yawn, stretch, "Sacré bleu, I had zis little bit terrifying dream where I was spending money!"

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Totally agree NQ but it ain't happening under Le Prof. Vidal, Lacazzete & Cech isn't asking a lot & all affordable. Those 3 would have shaken up the starting 11, competition for places & given us the chance to play 4-2-3-1 in the tougher games away. I am resigned to the fact that we will only buy players that obviously strengthen us when Wenger is gone. Even if he did buy the quality we need I'm not sure he'd know what to do with them.

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

Everything is relative, Diaby was on 60k a week to keep people company in the treatment room

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Yep - your right, Wengers on £150,000 a week to finish ahead of Spurs.

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Originally Posted by Globalgunner

He lost his will to win after it became too hard, post Chelsea/Abramovic and moreso when Mourinho arrived, add Abu dhabi City into the equation plus Fergies relentless will to win. its easy to see why he receded into the safety of 4th place. Who else is competing there? Spurs, Pool. only fleetingly. The thing that motivates Wenger to keep on managing is what he himself has confessed. There is simply nothing else in his life. Getting paid like a CL winner is only an affirmation of his self worth. If he didnt care about the money he could have taken lower wages during our so called broke period. Every manager he likes to compare himself to has won the CL, most 2 times each, Wenger gets schooled every time in the last 16. It can only get worse im afraid. If you cant crack the CL with the squad of 2000_2004. You wont with a bunch of Wilsheres and Ramseys plus Giroud as your goal getter.

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I think he's been complacent. He had the Invincible season and after that season frustrated the hell out of Fergie with that FA Cup victory. On the one hand I think maybe he's relaxing a little and finds comfort in knowing he's done something no one else has managed with our last league win and maybe feeling he's gotten the better of Fergie. He's got job security because the board reassure him every year that he has a job for life and with this stadium project, he's cemented his spot as an Arsenal legend and model to all managers that want to move to a bigger stadium.

But on the other hand, I don't know why he'd grow so easily complacent without the Champs League title. His record is a wounder and he wants that trophy badly.

It's a real mystery. I don't know why he hasn't tried to put his foot on the throat of his competitors. I really don't. He'll have to explain things when he retires.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

£90K? Less than a third of what fat boy shrek steals? Everything was right about this deal, I can't see a single reason as to why he's not having a medical at the Emirates right now. Other than Wenger being fast asleep at the wheel.

Guess who Juve are after? Draxler.

Wenger zzzzzzzzzz (mutter mutter) zzzzzzzzzzzz (we will do it if Jesus Christ becomes available) zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, yawn, stretch, "Sacré bleu, I had zis little bit terrifying dream where I was spending money!"

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That's a head scratchier. 90k a week. £25m! :sick:

It's because of Jack and Rambo. That's why he didn't make a move for Vidal. He played Santi as a DM on Saturday so that's another way to get either player in the starting line up.

It's this sort of thing that's held us back for so long. This guy would be a serious addition to our squad and we've passed up on him. I hope we don't let another season pass us by. Season before last when Fergie retired was a huge opportunity to win the league and the first time we've led and been genuine contenders. If we'd have moved quicker in the window and been more ambitious we'd have won it. I hope we don't repeat the same mistake.

When I've seen Vidal he looks more of a box to box midfielder than a holding one so I'm not sure he was what we're after. But as soon as Arteta signed a new deal I think getting a new player in that area went out the window anyway. Huge gamble that Coq will replicate last season's form.

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Originally Posted by Gooner23

When I've seen Vidal he looks more of a box to box midfielder than a holding one so I'm not sure he was what we're after. But as soon as Arteta signed a new deal I think getting a new player in that area went out the window anyway. Huge gamble that Coq will replicate last season's form.

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I know he's more box to box and I don't think we're in the market for a DM either way. But he's a superior box to box player than what we currently have and would have been good to see Wenger make a move on him like he did with Cech this season or Ozil a couple back.

I'm not worried about Coquelin replicating last seasons form. Honestly, before seeing him this season, I thought he had it in him to play at this level. He scraps for the ball and can tackle, he's mobile, good technique and doesn't panic under pressure when it comes to passing the ball out. He'll be fine.

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Originally Posted by Dein-machine

Yep - your right, Wengers on £150,000 a week to finish ahead of Spurs.

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Were you the same guy who said you'd rather have Pulis as Arsenal manager because he'd at least beaten Mourinho?

Apologies if not

Right now I wouldn't swap Santi for anyone in centre mid alongside Coq. With Wilshere and Ramsey as back up we have pretty good depth there. An upgrade on Coq would have been good but I can understand why he's being given the chance. I think we're a top class striker away from challenging. But he may decide to go with Sanchez down the middle.

Make it happen, Wenger

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BdY6p2UCMAAVEd5.jpg

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

Were you the same guy who said you'd rather have Pulis as Arsenal manager because he'd at least beaten Mourinho?

Apologies if not

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Afraid not Herbie, although whoever said it isn't far from my views on Wenger. I will say however, I would expect Eddie Howe, who has never managed in the P.L. or C.L., given the players we have & the money we have to spend to do a better job as Arsenal manager than Wenger - simply because the glaring problem areas would have to be addressed by someone needing to make he's own stamp on the team & tactically I think Wenger is hopeless.

To be fair I think a lot of your arguments smack of familiarity breeding contempt

As much as I think Wenger is a relic and a stubborn old goat who arguably needs to be put out to pasture if we are going to make the step up to the next level, I think it's totally supposition and rather disingenuous to suggest that a mid table manager would have done a better job than Wenger. Wenger is currently for me at the level of someone like Van Gaal who is also in many respects a relic and a tactical dinosaur who only now is spending money on players in the required positions.

We have seen at Man United what happens when you let mid table managers take charge of big clubs.

Nothing wrong with a midtable manager. You have to start somewhere. As long as they show promise and push low quality players beyond the usual standard and actually win something. We can't bring in someone that has no credentials at all or a similar playing philosophy to what we have and then expect champagne football.

Wenger's done a good job but he's let himself back and should be known as one of the greats.

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

To be fair I think a lot of your arguments smack of familiarity breeding contempt

As much as I think Wenger is a relic and a stubborn old goat who arguably needs to be put out to pasture if we are going to make the step up to the next level, I think it's totally supposition and rather disingenuous to suggest that a mid table manager would have done a better job than Wenger. Wenger is currently for me at the level of someone like Van Gaal who is also in many respects a relic and a tactical dinosaur who only now is spending money on players in the required positions.

We have seen at Man United what happens when you let mid table managers take charge of big clubs.

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Van Gaal is only starting his 2nd season. In his 1st he has got them back into Champions league with a team that he mostly inherited. Yes, he is spending money but in areas that are necessary to improve the team,, exactly like Mourinho did last year.
Moyes fucked it up - agreed. Rodgers was a Gerrard slip away from winning the league with Liverpool - he was a mid table manager with Swansea. Who's to know what someone like Howe could do at Arsenal. What I do know is that he would know what needs improving & improve it, get rid of the deadwood that is stinking up our squad & be able to adapt tactically to the opposition we are playing - Wenger continues to prove that he is unable to do these things.

Wenger is the only one that can change my opinion of Wenger & this transfer window just emphasizes that he is not changing, doesn't want to change & incapable of learning lessons from previous years. His efforts over the years have left us finacially well set but frustrated on the football front. He is now the main reason this football club fails to progress - a shame for what he has done for us but we really do need a change in order to move on.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

Nothing wrong with a midtable manager. You have to start somewhere. As long as they show promise and push low quality players beyond the usual standard and actually win something. We can't bring in someone that has no credentials at all or a similar playing philosophy to what we have and then expect champagne football.

Wenger's done a good job but he's let himself back and should be known as one of the greats.

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By mid table manager I don't mean someone who is managing a mid table club, I mean one who is of the level of managing a mid table club. Managers like Moyes, Pardew and Pulis are of this level....they are very good managers of mid table clubs but don't have the ability to manage higher than their current level.

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Originally Posted by Dein-machine

Van Gaal is only starting his 2nd season. In his 1st he has got them back into Champions league with a team that he mostly inherited. Yes, he is spending money but in areas that are necessary to improve the team,, exactly like Mourinho did last year.
Moyes fucked it up - agreed. Rodgers was a Gerrard slip away from winning the league with Liverpool - he was a mid table manager with Swansea. Who's to know what someone like Howe could do at Arsenal. What I do know is that he would know what needs improving & improve it, get rid of the deadwood that is stinking up our squad & be able to adapt tactically to the opposition we are playing - Wenger continues to prove that he is unable to do these things.

Wenger is the only one that can change my opinion of Wenger & this transfer window just emphasizes that he is not changing, doesn't want to change & incapable of learning lessons from previous years. His efforts over the years have left us finacially well set but frustrated on the football front. He is now the main reason this football club fails to progress - a shame for what he has done for us but we really do need a change in order to move on.

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Van Gaal did exactly the same thing Wenger did last season, they had to play for a good deal of the season with wingers playing full back and defenders from the youth team. To make the claim that because he has signed Schneiderlin and Schweinsteiger he automatically is a better manager than Wenger is a joke.
Remind me exactly how many games he won away from home last season?
He finished behind us despite not having to contend with European football or the league cup for that matter after getting absolutely battered by a lower league side.
Van Gaal is better than Moyes no argument there, but better than Wenger? I think he's got a lot to do to convince me.

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

Van Gaal did exactly the same thing Wenger did last season, they had to play for a good deal of the season with wingers playing full back and defenders from the youth team. To make the claim that because he has signed Schneiderlin and Schweinsteiger he automatically is a better manager than Wenger is a joke.
Remind me exactly how many games he won away from home last season?
He finished behind us despite not having to contend with European football or the league cup for that matter after getting absolutely battered by a lower league side.
Van Gaal is better than Moyes no argument there, but better than Wenger? I think he's got a lot to do to convince me.

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What planet are you on - How can you compare Wenger & Van Gaal when the Dutchman's only been in the job 2 minutes. Wengers had 2 decades on Van Gaal, so when you say he had to do the same last year with youth defenders & wingers playing full back - its understandable when you inherit a squad, NOT when you've been there for 20 years!.
If you want to be petty a compare silly things like away records with 2 guys who are miles apart in comparison when you look at the time they have had in their jobs, who's been more successful in winning titles & in Europe?
You need to take your rose tinted glasses off when it comes to Wenger & realise that he is a very lucky man to still be in a job after the false promises he served up for a decade.