Wenger Referendum II - And this time it's personal

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Globalgunner

The reason I get so aggro with Letters is that his default position is:. Defend Wenger at all costs. There is always reason to be hopeful with him.

---

Well, no. For much of this season I've been firmly in the 'Wenger Out' camp and said so repeatedly. 4 wins in our first 12 league games was disgraceful. Ultimately though, a season should be judged at the end and you have to give some credit where it's due and acknowledge that we've turned it round, gone on a fantastic run and hauled ourselves into 2nd place and the Cup Semi-Final. If we finish the job then Wenger deserves credit for that.

I'm constantly bemused that I'm sneered at on here for reconsidering my position in the light of new events. To me that makes more logical sense than stubbornly sticking to a view no matter what happens.

Quote:

---

We start each season with the means and tools to win all 4 comps we are in. By March we are usually out of all of them and still we keep saying, we can build on this.

---

We weren't last year, we won the Cup. This year we're back in the semi-final and really should get to the final.
Are you suggesting that we weren't under pressure in the Cup quarter final at Old Trafford? I would suggest there was more pressure in that game than Monaco at home. A lesser competition but a later stage of it and a one off game rather than a two legged tie.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Letters

Then what were they playing at early season? And who buys and trains the players?
Wenger is responsible for results, good or bad.

---

Can't fault his activity in the transfer market recently. But Wenger's ability to use those players to the best advantage is deeply suspect. Injuries and luck (plus the desire of players like Coquelin) has helped Wenger out hugely. He still makes his silly subs though, still goes defensive when we should be on the front foot, still takes opponents for granted. All the flaws are still there, don't be fooled otherwise.

Oh yeah, the defensive 4-1 win vs Liverpool.
What a bumbling idiot :angry:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Letters

Oh yeah, the defensive 4-1 win vs Liverpool.
What a bumbling idiot :angry:

---

Didn't say it was defensive, I said he took his foot off the gas when we were under zero threat and by doing so created the threat he was trying to avoid. Then you take the Monaco game where he admits the team wasn't prepared for the first leg, in other words the result was taken for granted. You could say it was a one off but look back over the seasons and you see it happening time and time again. He's a good manager, the best in some respects. But he's average and sometimes woeful tactically and he has a stubborn streak that prevents him learning key lessons. That said, his stubborn streak sometimes helps us too, like when he stuck with Ramsey when just about everyone was on the kid's back. An infuriating man that has a huge amount of resources at his disposal but remains 98% efficient at using them when it's the 100% effort that wins the big prizes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Letters

None of them have been similar. This is the best run since The Invincibles, and the best run anyone has put together this season. And comes at the end of a run of 17 wins out of 20. Again, we haven't done anything close to that since The Invincibles. Long unbeaten runs with quite a few draws in really don't compare...unless it suits your agenda.

---

This is all PL stats below:

2007/08 season, in our first 15 games, this was our record before our first loss: P15 W11 D4

2008/09 season, after losing 5 games by the end of November, our record till the end of the season was P24 W13 D10 L1

2009/10 season, after our loss to chelsea at home 0-3, our record till our next loss was P10 W7 D3. We then lost 2 games in succession and then went on another run. This run was P8 W7 D1.

We always have unbeaten runs. 2009/10 had a lot of draws but look at the others (especially 07/08), what makes you think this is even close to the invincibles?! The above stats look even better when you pepper in random token wins in the FA Cup, Carling Cup and CL Group stages, but frankly I didnt want to put the time and effort to prove an already known point.

To say that this is the best run since the Invincibles is an absurd statement to make when we lost to Tottenham as recently as February!! You really are acting a WUM on this one and you know it. There is no point going further on this tbh..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blink 1nce Quince 2wice

Do we need to spend more than 50 million in the summer anyway?

---

a keeper
a centre back
seven or eight more attacking midfielders, just in case
a striker

probably :coffee:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fakeyank

This is all PL stats below:

2007/08 season, in our first 15 games, this was our record before our first loss: P15 W11 D4

2008/09 season, after losing 5 games by the end of November, our record till the end of the season was P24 W13 D10 L1

2009/10 season, after our loss to chelsea at home 0-3, our record till our next loss was P10 W7 D3. We then lost 2 games in succession and then went on another run. This run was P8 W7 D1.

We always have unbeaten runs. 2009/10 had a lot of draws but look at the others (especially 07/08), what makes you think this is even close to the invincibles?! The above stats look even better when you pepper in random token wins in the FA Cup, Carling Cup and CL Group stages, but frankly I didnt want to put the time and effort to prove an already known point.

To say that this is the best run since the Invincibles is an absurd statement to make when we lost to Tottenham as recently as February!! You really are acting a WUM on this one and you know it. There is no point going further on this tbh..

---

:gp:

Only one of those runs is anywhere near what we've done this year, and that's 2007/8 which is when we really should have won the title, might well have done had the Eduardo thing not happened. We've shown we can go on sustained runs of title winning form, we've shown we can win big games at the crunch time of the season, we've shown we can win trophies again under Wenger and we finally have a squad that can compete, not just a first 11. Questions remain about us sustaining a title challenge but I reckon only Chelsea fans would refuse to swap positions with us right now. But yeah, Wenger's an idiot who gets paid blah blah blah... :blah:


All that said, this run IS meaningless if we fail to finish the job. We have to win the cup. I'm less bothered about finishing 2nd although it would be a boost psychologically and stop the 4th place trophy nonsense.

Quote:

---

All that said, this run IS meaningless if we fail to finish the job.

---

Which is why that silly stat is pointless. We could end the season with less points than what we finished on last year but come 2nd instead of 4th. No point in putting much stock in the stats.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Letters

Only one of those runs is anywhere near what we've done this year, and that's 2007/8 which is when we really should have won the title, might well have done had the Eduardo thing not happened. We've shown we can go on sustained runs of title winning form, we've shown we can win big games at the crunch time of the season, we've shown we can win trophies again under Wenger and we finally have a squad that can compete, not just a first 11. Questions remain about us sustaining a title challenge but I reckon only Chelsea fans would refuse to swap positions with us right now. But yeah, Wenger's an idiot who gets paid blah blah blah... :blah:


All that said, this run IS meaningless if we fail to finish the job. We have to win the cup. I'm less bothered about finishing 2nd although it would be a boost psychologically and stop the 4th place trophy nonsense.

---

How is the second run in 09/10 of 7 wins and 1 draw just not as good? And how on earth is this anywhere close to the Invincibles?!! :haha:

Wenger's done ok this season and I think he will deserve a chance if we win the cup and beat Chelsea, but to pretend like this run is the best thing since sliced bread is laughable!

The bottom line for me is that we are a club who should be winning titles and the occasional CL, even Porto can boast of a few. That is where we are supposed to be as a club and where we claim we want to be. Winning runs w/o trophies are meaningless. We are not the Spuds, we need to challenge consistently. Wenger has stolen nobodys Teddy bear as far as I can tell, so no we don't hate him. Just wish he would do the needful, much of which seems pretty obvious to most of us.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fakeyank

How is the second run in 09/10 of 7 wins and 1 draw just not as good?

---

Because I'm talking about the extended run of 17 wins out of 20. 8 wins in a row, while impressive, would be less so after an indifferent run. But I do agree this run has to lead somewhere, and the somewhere should be a trophy. I'm more bothered about the Cup than beating Chelsea. Both would be nice but Mourinho will come and park the bus, I do see te psychological value in Wenger finally beating a Mourinho side but retaining the Cup would give us more momentum going into next season.

Quote:

---

I do see te psychological value in Wenger finally beating a Mourinho side but retaining the Cup would give us more momentum going into next season.

---

Like the momentum last year's win gave us leading up to the disastrous opening this season?

The FA Cup is a fun day out but meaningless in terms of measuring a club's overall performance levels. That's the whole point of the cup, one-off games, giant killers, teams and players playing above themselves. You can't judge anything by it and it's not worth anything compared to the big prizes.

Screw the psychological value of beating Maureen's drone army, the psychology should be in the bag already or Wenger isn't doing his job. We need to catch them and overtake them to win the title and that's the only thing we should be focused on. Everyone gets paid a fortune to win so let's go and do that. The chavs will be doing the same. If we come off that pitch and we've stood toe to to with them and given them a proper game then fair enough. Any thing less is a disgrace. It's the biggest match of the season and the cup pales into total insignificance by comparison. Then the match after the chav game will be the biggest game of the season, all the way through to the line. If we take maximum points from all of them we'll win the league. If we drop a single point anywhere we'll be losers again.

Everyone deserves a degree of credit for putting together a good run at the business end of the season. But not too much credit because that's what we should be doing anyway. The real credit comes if we make a fist of challenging for this title. That's when we'll know things have changed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

Like the momentum last year's win gave us leading up to the disastrous opening this season?

The FA Cup is a fun day out but meaningless in terms of measuring a club's overall performance levels. That's the whole point of the cup, one-off games, giant killers, teams and players playing above themselves. You can't judge anything by it and it's not worth anything compared to the big prizes.

Screw the psychological value of beating Maureen's drone army, the psychology should be in the bag already or Wenger isn't doing his job. We need to catch them and overtake them to win the title and that's the only thing we should be focused on. Everyone gets paid a fortune to win so let's go and do that. The chavs will be doing the same. If we come off that pitch and we've stood toe to to with them and given them a proper game then fair enough. Any thing less is a disgrace. It's the biggest match of the season and the cup pales into total insignificance by comparison. Then the match after the chav game will be the biggest game of the season, all the way through to the line. If we take maximum points from all of them we'll win the league. If we drop a single point anywhere we'll be losers again.

Everyone deserves a degree of credit for putting together a good run at the business end of the season. But not too much credit because that's what we should be doing anyway. The real credit comes if we make a fist of challenging for this title. That's when we'll know things have changed.

---

Well said, and the title is all that matters.....anything less is no success, and the FA Cup is not a major trophy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

Like the momentum last year's win gave us leading up to the disastrous opening this season?

---

:lol: that is a pretty good point. I'm still not sure how we managed to be so awful at the start of this season, but I'd still rather go into next season having had 2 pretty decent seasons in a row which, if we retain the cup, this will have been. If we finish 2nd better still but I'd rather have a trophy. I don't agree the FA Cup is meaningless. It is still a major trophy. It has been devalued by the Champions League but the final still has a huge global audience and it's still taken seriously by the big clubs. I'd liked us to have beaten Birmingham in the league cup final but had we done so it wouldn't have felt the same as last season's FA Cup.

We certainly need to try to catch Chelsea but IMO the last glimmer of hope there was their jammy late goal vs RPQ. They now only need 4 wins from 7 games and while they do have a tough run in they do have 4 games against cannon fodder. We already have made a fist of challenging by putting together a run which has made the chavs look over their shoulder. We need to keep that going but the title is in their hands, not ours.

Fuck it! I'm pissed!

Wenger IN!!

At least he's one of us!

Look at the rest of the world of football! It's like the election!

Knowing our luck we'll end up with fucking Ed Middlebrand.

Quote:

---

Fuck it! I'm pissed!

---

:gp:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

:gp:

---

:gp:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LDG

Fuck it! I'm pissed!

Wenger IN!!

At least he's one of us!

Look at the rest of the world of football! It's like the election!

Knowing our luck we'll end up with fucking Ed Middlebrand.

---

:haha:

Drunk LDG :bow:

Throw the bank at Atletico Madrid and get Diego Simeone

One can but dream

:gp:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LDG

Fuck it! I'm pissed!

Wenger IN!!

At least he's one of us!

Look at the rest of the world of football! It's like the election!

Knowing our luck we'll end up with fucking Ed Middlebrand.

---

:faint:

:haha:

Simeone can't speak a word of English and I'm not sure if he could do well at a big team; so far his success has come in from playing the "underdog" card.

Plus the football would be absolutely dire. Mourinho tier bad every game, though he's obviously a lot more justified in it considering the size and resources of Athletico compared to Barca and Real.

I'm also starting to get a few doubts about Pep as well. People think Wenger's too idealistic and stubborn but this guy takes the biscuit when it comes to that.

It's got to be Klopp if Wenger decides to call it a day or is forced out.

Athletico dont play dire football. They play good football but shut the barn door when playing the big boys.. I see nothing wrong with that, if we get results.

I am not a big fan of Pep either.. I think his success is built on teams who have world class players throughout the pitch. Dont think he will suit us.

I'd take Klopp, Martinez, Koeman or any up and coming manager over Wenger. IMO, we dont necessarily need to bring in someone who has won something, as long as they can show that they can motivate the team and have proper tactics.

Shutting the barn door is something we would do well learning a thing or two about.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fakeyank

I'd take Klopp, Martinez, Koeman or any up and coming manager over Wenger. IMO, we dont necessarily need to bring in someone who has won something, as long as they can show that they can motivate the team and have proper tactics.

---

Would absolutely love to see your posts on here if we had a season like Dortmund have had under Klopp this year.
Rock bottom after 19 games.
P19 W4 D4 L11 F18 A27
They've done better since but they're still nearer the relegation zone than the top 4.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Letters

Would absolutely love to see your posts on here if we had a season like Dortmund have had under Klopp this year.
Rock bottom after 19 games.
P19 W4 D4 L11 F18 A27
They've done better since but they're still nearer the relegation zone than the top 4.

---

They're 3 points off a Euorpa league place which would be fifth. You have often cited evaluating periods rather than singular seasons as a way of assessing performance and I think when you do that with Klopp over the past five years you'd see a very talented manager. One not so easy to dismiss. Who knows if he'd work out but he ticks a lot of the right boxes for the fans. If you don't think someone like this could be a successor now or in two seasons time, then who would do you think would be a safer bet, post-Wenger?

Letter's is full of shit with the stats. I doubt he follows Dortmund or Bundesliga and if this were Wenger's record, he'd be pointing out Dortmund's climb from the bottom to 7th and in touching distance of Europe as progress. Some bullshit stat with their last 10 games away or home record that makes it look more favourable. ;)

And don't ask him who he thinks would be a good successor because I doubt he watches enough leagues outside of the Prem to come up with an answer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

Letter's is full of shit with the stats. I doubt he follows Dortmund or Bundesliga and if this were Wenger's record, he'd be pointing out Dortmund's climb from the bottom to 7th and in touching distance of Europe as progress. Some bullshit stat with their last 10 games away or home record that makes it look more favourable. ;)

And don't ask him who he thinks would be a good successor because I doubt he watches enough leagues outside of the Prem to come up with an answer.

---

Very true, especially with the bold part. :haha:

Klopp is probably the best proven young manager out there. What he did for Dortmund in the past 7-8 years is astonishing, from nearly bankrupt to one of the biggest clubs in the world. I:coffee:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

Letter's is full of shit with the stats. I doubt he follows Dortmund or Bundesliga and if this were Wenger's record, he'd be pointing out Dortmund's climb from the bottom to 7th and in touching distance of Europe as progress. Some bullshit stat with their last 10 games away or home record that makes it look more favourable. ;)

And don't ask him who he thinks would be a good successor because I doubt he watches enough leagues outside of the Prem to come up with an answer.

---

:haha::haha::haha::haha:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by milla

What he did for Dortmund in the past 7-8 years is astonishing, from nearly bankrupt to one of the biggest clubs in the world. I:coffee:

---

It's certainly astonishing how he took the champions of Germany and had them fighting off relegation within 3 years.





:coffee:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

Letter's is full of shit with the stats. I doubt he follows Dortmund or Bundesliga and if this were Wenger's record, he'd be pointing out Dortmund's climb from the bottom to 7th and in touching distance of Europe as progress. Some bullshit stat with their last 10 games away or home record that makes it look more favourable. ;)

---

Well no, if this were Wenger's record this season I'd expect him to be sacked. But it isn't Wenger's record this season, is it? In fact Wenger has never had a season that poor for Arsenal. We had a shaky start but we were never below 8th. And there were banners in the ground demanding his head. And now we're guaranteed a top 4 finish and we're in the Cup Final. Dortmund finished 2nd the last two years, miles and miles behind the champions though, and this year they've spent much of the season fighting relegation.
But yeah, Wenger's an idiot and Klopp is miles better :lol:

Quote:

---

And don't ask him who he thinks would be a good successor because I doubt he watches enough leagues outside of the Prem to come up with an answer.

---

That much is true. I don't. But I can look up how some of the names that get bandied around on here are doing. The fact is any manager is a risk. No manager is guaranteed to succeed. That is no reason not to change managers of course, at some point we have to. But it's hilarious how most of the names mentioned on here have crashed and burned after flash in the pan success and how some of you judge other managers by completely different criteria than you do Wenger.

Ok, you seem to know that most of the 'names' mentioned on here have faded away. Who are the others that haven't who are worth trying out? You're alluding to knowing a list of names built up by people on here, aware that some have failed, so there must be one or two that you've heard of that still have their credentials intact. Otherwise you'd say all the managers mentions have crash and burned.

I'm asking again because your reaction to Klopp seems to be more of a reaction against posters digging at you, rather than the sort of 'balanced' argument you say you provide for Wenger. The easiest thing to do is dismiss something without any alternative suggestion.

Letters :haha:

The Animal Farm equivalent of Squealer on here, surely?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kano

I'm asking again because your reaction to Klopp seems to be more of a reaction against posters digging at you, rather than the sort of 'balanced' argument you say you provide for Wenger. The easiest thing to do is dismiss something without any alternative suggestion.

---

I don't need to provide an alternative suggestion. I'm just amused by the fact that we finished top 4 and won the Cup last season, we're going to finish top 4 again this year and may well retain the Cup and Wenger has been called every name under the sun on here and is apparently an incompetent buffoon. Klopp has, overall, done very well at Dortmund but this season has been a car crash for them and yet some people are sucking his cock and proclaiming him 'the answer'. Weird :shrug:

Given how critical people have been on here of Wenger this season, which could yet turn out to be a pretty decent one, I can't even imagine how they'd have posted had we been bottom after 20 games like Dortmund were.

Wenger has his flaws and some of them are maddening. All I'm saying is so will the next bloke. This over-criticising of Wenger and over-praising of other managers is ridiculous. If you really want me to name someone, someone who I think would definitely improve us and win us the title, it's Mourinho. And personally I wouldn't want that **** anywhere near our club.

This place really is tiresome. So few people seem to be able to think or reason in any shades of grey, the slightest suggestion from me that Wenger might actually not be a **** or an incompetent buffoon and apparently I defend everything he does and want him to be our manager forever :yawn:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Letters

Well no, if this were Wenger's record this season I'd expect him to be sacked. But it isn't Wenger's record this season, is it? In fact Wenger has never had a season that poor for Arsenal. We had a shaky start but we were never below 8th. And there were banners in the ground demanding his head. And now we're guaranteed a top 4 finish and we're in the Cup Final. Dortmund finished 2nd the last two years, miles and miles behind the champions though, and this year they've spent much of the season fighting relegation.
But yeah, Wenger's an idiot and Klopp is miles better :lol:


That much is true. I don't. But I can look up how some of the names that get bandied around on here are doing. The fact is any manager is a risk. No manager is guaranteed to succeed. That is no reason not to change managers of course, at some point we have to. But it's hilarious how most of the names mentioned on here have crashed and burned after flash in the pan success and how some of you judge other managers by completely different criteria than you do Wenger.

---

I'm not saying Wenger's an idiot. I'm saying you're the idiot!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Letters

I don't need to provide an alternative suggestion. I'm just amused by the fact that we finished top 4 and won the Cup last season, we're going to finish top 4 again this year and may well retain the Cup and Wenger has been called every name under the sun on here and is apparently an incompetent buffoon. Klopp has, overall, done very well at Dortmund but this season has been a car crash for them and yet some people are sucking his cock and proclaiming him 'the answer'. Weird :shrug:

Given how critical people have been on here of Wenger this season, which could yet turn out to be a pretty decent one, I can't even imagine how they'd have posted had we been bottom after 20 games like Dortmund were.

Wenger has his flaws and some of them are maddening. All I'm saying is so will the next bloke. This over-criticising of Wenger and over-praising of other managers is ridiculous. If you really want me to name someone, someone who I think would definitely improve us and win us the title, it's Mourinho. And personally I wouldn't want that **** anywhere near our club.

This place really is tiresome. So few people seem to be able to think or reason in any shades of grey, the slightest suggestion from me that Wenger might actually not be a **** or an incompetent buffoon and apparently I defend everything he does and want him to be our manager forever :yawn:

---

An example of why you're an idiot.

Pretty much exactly what I'm talking about.
No attempt to engage with anything I said, no response to anything, just abuse.
:shrug:

GW :rose:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Letters

Pretty much exactly what I'm talking about.
No attempt to engage with anything I said, no response to anything, just abuse.
:shrug:

GW :rose:

---

WUMs will WUM. It is known.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Letters

I don't need to provide an alternative suggestion. I'm just amused by the fact that we finished top 4 and won the Cup last season, we're going to finish top 4 again this year and may well retain the Cup and Wenger has been called every name under the sun on here and is apparently an incompetent buffoon. Klopp has, overall, done very well at Dortmund but this season has been a car crash for them and yet some people are sucking his cock and proclaiming him 'the answer'. Weird :shrug:

Given how critical people have been on here of Wenger this season, which could yet turn out to be a pretty decent one, I can't even imagine how they'd have posted had we been bottom after 20 games like Dortmund were.

Wenger has his flaws and some of them are maddening. All I'm saying is so will the next bloke. This over-criticising of Wenger and over-praising of other managers is ridiculous. If you really want me to name someone, someone who I think would definitely improve us and win us the title, it's Mourinho. And personally I wouldn't want that **** anywhere near our club.

This place really is tiresome. So few people seem to be able to think or reason in any shades of grey, the slightest suggestion from me that Wenger might actually not be a **** or an incompetent buffoon and apparently I defend everything he does and want him to be our manager forever :yawn:

---

Of course you don't have to name someone but I think it would give your argument more credibility. I don't come to this place as much as yourself nowadays but from what I read most people see Klopp as a possible answer rather than a guarantee of success.

Whether anyone admits it, every fan enjoys the 'security' Wenger gives us; always in the CL and just close enough to the top without ever completely losing sight. The stagnation and snail-paced improvement is maddening as hell but there is always hope because the team clings onto the elite. When he goes we'll all feel unsure about the future under the next guy. Starting afresh is scary for anyone. Forums are never a true reflection of reality, so sadly he'll get called every name under the until the frustration subsides. It is one of the massive contradictions by fans and none of us of are immune from displaying similar toward other clubs/players. But that doesn't reflect the fans true feelings to the guy. When he leaves I can't imagine a single Arsenal fan, or at least the many who understand his history here, without a lump in their throat.

Discussing a replacement is more of a certainty than how frustrated people are. The mood can change but a replacement will have to be sought. There's no escaping it. We all know Mourinho would never be accepted here so a discussion has to happen around other candidates. Realistic ones at that. Klopp is an obvious manager to put in the frame because of the many boxes he ticks. He's had a terrible season but can you think of a manager that has stuck with a team punching above their weight for years and stayed there successfully? They get picked off in the end by their rivals. Koeman may get put into the reckoning for the Arsenal job and although personally I'm not sure, you could understand why. Southampton will get ripped apart in the end and fall lower but that wouldn't make Koeman a bad manager. Let's not forget 'Arsene Who?' 19 years ago, a manager who arrived into the Premier carrying far less credibility than Klopp. Ideally we'd like a manager with age on his side, rather than plumping for one of the super-managers - like Maureen - who build short term projects and clear off onto the next one.