We'll never know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dein-machine
And if he could, then aren't we talking about the greatest manager of all time?
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We'll never know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dein-machine
And if he could, then aren't we talking about the greatest manager of all time?
Yes we are & also someone who knew when it was time to quitQuote:
Originally Posted by LDG
Oh, I think Wenger knows when it's time to quit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dein-machine
In fact, I think he'll walk if we don't win the cup.
I find the two year thing very interesting though, as that tells me we've lined up the replacement already.
I suppose if you really believe Wenger settles for 4th place in return for a life of comfort then nothing will bridge the gap between your position and mine. I wasn't comparing other managers to him, you were. You said others could have done the job. Now you say no, because the same conditions haven't existed elsewhere. The argument moves to new ground every time your original points are countered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Özim
We had huge debates about the role of employers and employees. The consensus among a certain group was the board fawned at Wenger's feet and he was some sort of miser who forbade them to spend the huge treasure piles we had stashed away. Fair enough if you can't recall all the posts, but they exist. Now it has come time to trash Wenger's record it is useful to place the board back in charge and credit them exclusively.Quote:
Originally Posted by Özim
No £30mill splash outs for Ferdinand and Rooney remember. Or punts on players like Veron. Everything would have to be constrained to hits like Cantona. I'm not so sure he'd have had the same haul of trophies myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dein-machine
I didn't say others couldn't do the job, I said others haven't had the same criteria or situation so you can judge whether they could or couldn't based on what they have done at other clubs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
Yes I believe he settles for 4th place, he seems perfectly content with 4th place every season, winning whilst great isn't that important to him, wasn't it Cesc who alluded to this in an interview as well?
I never liked the board, they basically made money whilst being happy to watch us get 4th, but IMO they are the main reason for the stadium they put themselves on the line after all, yes it was all with the aim of making money but they still did it, Wenger had nothing to lose other than his big salary if it didn't work out, he didn't personally financially invest in it. If it didn't work out he could have just found another job as most managers do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
Wenger no doubt wanted a bigger stadium but to say he was the most important factor is nonsense, he didn't take on the debt or the risk.
I think we need to stop looking back and muddying the waters. We should all be assessing whether he can take us forward from this point on. Here we are yet again needing to secure 4th and this time it's even more painstaking because we were competing for the title 5 games ago. Just how much progression has been made exactly? Start badly, finish well or start well, finish badly, is there a difference? Ultimately it just shows our limitations.
Do you enjoy the football we play anymore? It's not a patch on sides of the past. No I'm not silly enough to compare us to the Invincibles, I mean recent past. Where has all the creativity gone? Why are we so negative? Why did we settle for a hit and miss striker to lead the line with no viable alternatives? Why did we do nothing in January?
I've seen enough now personally. Every year is the same and we end up talking about the same things. Wenger has done wonders for us but its time to look forward, have you honestly seen signs that suggest he is the man to give us the best chance of success? No one is going to come in and change us overnight, but aren't you all bored now of this?
Pretty much agree with this, I'm definitely bored of it, the outcome, the football, the way things pan out, I've had enough. I don't believe in him and I don't really understand why anyone would to be honest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Overmars
:gp:Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Overmars
A coherent argument expressing valid complaints. Presented without a knife being stuck in the manager's ribs. It looks like things may have already been decided behind the scenes. Wenger will stay for two more years and then move up or out. That's what it appears based on recent events. That could change dramatically if we don't win the cup. Personally I don't think the cup is a any real measure, it won't put the doubters' minds at rest and neither does it have much of an impact on what has to happen next, which is big signings in key areas. That's what will really move us on and up. The degradation of quality in the squad has been reflected on the pitch. Supposedly we now have the funds to reverse this trend. The real risk is that Wenger will not maximise the next transfer window. It's a shame the World Cup sits smack in the middle of it but nevertheless everyone at the club needs to get a result in the summer and bring in the necessary players. The money excuse is gone. Failure to perform this summer can't be pinned on lack of available funds. The funds are there and we all know it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Overmars
Oh cool! We can make up any old shit now, can we?Quote:
Originally Posted by Özim
You just need to take one look at him when things are going well to see he's not 'perfectly content'.
every single thread on here has descended into a wenger in/out, pro/anti and associated fuckery
is anyone still modding on here :sulk:
this whole Arsene is happy with 4th is utter bollocks. Take a look at how he was during the first few months of the season and how he is now and then say he is happy with fourth.
During the first half of the season, he looked younger, refreshed and had that old smile back, we all noticed it, now look at him, he looks older, gets more annoyed at mistakes as the title slips away. He's never been happy with fourth, he's never been happy when he isn't winning either. He is a winner, just look at what he won with us, you don't win a league unbeaten then become happy with 4th. Its just bollocks
Yeah I look at him, he jumps up and down and rants a bit, then he realises that was pointless and goes back to doing what he always does, nothing ever changes so I just look at his rantings on the touchline as failry pointless. I'm not making sh*t up, just pointing out a man who has not won a thing in 8 years and continues to praise 4th place doesn't seem too bothered about the fact his team have failed to win, everytime they collapse he still somehow manages to find positive things to say about them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
He's happy with 4th, if he wasn't he wouldn't be praising the team every f*cking season for getting 4th and would do more than he does to win stuff, is there any other top manager in the history in the game who has revelled in what is in terms of winning failure for so long and been content with it?
When a manager does what he does but refuses to address the issues and do the necessary, he's either incompetent or content with what he's doing.
Yeah I've looked the problem is he really never does anything about it in reality, that means as above he's either content with coming 4th or just incompetent and unable to fix the issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie the Optimist
Was it Cesc that said at Arsenal winning was great but if we got 4th if was seen as success? People say Wenger's not happy about not winning, then I ask why he doesn't address the issues with the team/squad and why he's been able to go 8+ years without so much as a tin pot trophy and still been pleased with his teams and his performance?
Name me one other manager who has done this and can be considered top class?
For someone who is so desperate to win he certainly isn't doing enough with the resources he has to hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie the Optimist
He went into the season pretty much without a senior striker, is this the behaviour of a manager who is desperate to win?
IMO, I don't think it's a case of whether or not he wants to win, more a case of him wanting to win "his way". It's all very idealistic and self-fulfilling IMO and he places far too much of an emphasis on his own desires ahead of the teams desires.
Of course this is simply my opinion and based on my observation of his management style.
I don't believe the job of modding a forum is to guide discussions and police what people can and can't talk about unless people are being abusive to each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro
:shrug:
Letters, what's happened to GayPete?Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
Yes you are:Quote:
Originally Posted by Özim
That's bullshit and you know it. You're just WUMming. You must be, you can't possibly believe that.Quote:
doesn't seem too bothered about the fact his team have failed to win
Er. I think he's Sterling Archer now?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dein-machine
::gp:Good Post.Surely if he really wanted to win the league so badly he would of strengthened in january especially with the injuries we had.Quote:
Originally Posted by selassie
Like I said I do, he might want to win but to me it's clear he's not too unhappy not winning or else he would be far more proactive like many other managers and wouldn't go on about top 4 like he does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
Why else would someone fail to strenghten adequately, stick with the same players and praise 4th so much after 8 years of nothing. It's the lack of real changes that gets me and his excuses, a manager that isn't happy with not winning doesn't make excuses, he does something about it.
See Selassie’s post. Almost a decade without winning a trophy and I don’t know how it hasn’t eaten him alive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
David Dein gave a good interview ahead of Wenger's ill-fated 1000th game. He said they always go out for dinner after home games unless we've lost because then Wenger's no company at all. It clearly bothers him. Whether he's able to do anything about it is a different matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory
There's clearly been some financial restrictions on him although I also believe some have been self-inflicted too. There seems to have been a longer term plan and you look at his net spend over his whole time with us it's remarkable how he's kept us up there.
He should, of course, have won some trophies in the last 9 years too and I see the FA Cup this year as his last chance to deliver.
You can accuse him of many things but not being bothered isn't one of them, there's a physical change in him when things aren't going well, it clearly affects him deeply.
Fergie said in his book that Arsene struggled to accept that his sides playing perfect football could lose, and that intensified their feud. Now, that might be Fergie trying to stir the pot but it doesn't contradict other impressions I've got about him, ie. being a "bad" loser, if you want to call it that. You might very well think that he isn't capable of delivering trophies or success because his philosophy is outdated, or his tactics are naive - you might very well think that. But I do not think for a moment that Arsene has become disinterested and complacent.
Please stop trying to distort the truth. What is net spend. Wenger has had plenty to spend and no one can believe that a mortgage of 24m per year has resticted us frtom spending when at the same time we have an annual wage bill of over 130m and the manager himself is paid over 7m. The net spend is an irrelevant figure because it is distorted by the massive payouts we have got from selling stars like Le sulk, Overmars, Henry, Fabregas et al. We have plenty of money, CVertainly not as much as the erstwhile top 3 but more than any of the other 16 teams,Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
What is the putrpose of a sporting enterprise. Is it not to fulfil its fans expectations or to horde money like some character from the Merchant of Venice. We are sitting on 120m, more than any other sporting franchise in the world perhaps, Instead of maximising our potential on the pitch we shore up money while pretending to be broke. Wenger doesnt spend because it strokes his ego more to be known as the economic miracle worker than the all conquering manager. He knows he cant win the big titles so he has created one for himself. The big players he sold...All the ones who left aftert 2005 abandoned him because his method was never going to win them titles....They all say it even Flamini, who came back after success at Milan.
So he is upset when he loses..Throws a water bottle about!....So do something about it. Gird yourself with the best tools you can find to win and let others worry about the bank balance.
:gp: - this 100%Quote:
Originally Posted by Globalgunner
That’s in relation to losing a game. That’s not the same as looking back on the season and being deeply disappointed with our position. How many times has he defended our CL qualification record? You do it yourself and constantly remind everyone we’ve had financial restrictions because of the stadium. Even though it’s true, when he paints us as being handicapped and the underdog, it sort of justifies the team’s performance. It’s similar to what Jose and Roger’s were doing when playing down their title hopes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
:gp: yes!Quote:
Originally Posted by Globalgunner
How am I doing that?
Net spend cannot be distorted, it is what it is :shrug:
We do have plenty of money compared with many clubs but there is no doubt that the stadium move and poor financial deals have affected us. I'm not just making this up, in the aforementioned interview with Dein he says how we had to "beg, steal and borrow" to meet wage demands.
Net spend does not reflect our spending power. Most of what we have bought in the last 8 years has either been rubbish or we turned formerly good players, coveted all over Europe into turds. In the same time we have sold Ade, Nasri, Fabregas RVP, all for huge amounts, while buying Squillaci, Sylvester, Santos, Gervinho. When I realised than Wenger is infuriatingly ego driven is when he bought Koscielny for 10m while passing up Cahill 6 months earlier in January. By most fair estimations these 2 players are as good as each other. However Cahill was available for about 8m....Wenger offered 6m which Bolton promptly turned down, holding out for 8m. He didnt go for Cahill because every paper in the country suggested him as a solution to our defensive problems. No glory for the manager in that purchase, then.
the difference is that Cahill was keen to come was PL ready and needed no acclimatisation. Instead Koscielny came, had a nightmare 1st season and may have singlehandedly cost us the CC. If Wenger had spent the extra 2m, he might have that and the narrative would be 5 years without a trophy, not 9
You do it all the time when writing off our title chances, like the conversation we had earlier in the season. When you keep saying he's done a remarkable job with limited funds, it sets us up as the underdog.
Agreed - the same again when every pundit,paper,Arsenal/Non-Arsenal fan in the world suggested we needed some pace & goals upfront in the Jan window because apart from the fact Giroud is poo, we had also lost the goal threat of Rambo & Theo - he did nothing, sorry I'm wrong - he bought an old midfielder with a bad back for nothing. The fact that he doesn't do the obvious when everyone else can see it can only be his ego & his "I'll do it my way" attitude. He simply won't be told.Quote:
Originally Posted by Globalgunner
Turned into StraightPete.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dein-machine
Wasnt Koscielny bought in 2010 while Cahill was sold to Chelsea in Janury 2012?Quote:
Originally Posted by Globalgunner
Koscielny was handed the club's number 6 shirt. Arsenal fans voted Laurent Koscielny as Arsène Wenger’s most effective signing of 2010–11 following an impressive debut campaignQuote:
Originally Posted by Globalgunner
I do see as as the underdog compared with City and Chelsea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory
with cahill, I'm fairly sure we bid 8 million, the bolton chairman then retweeted a fan on twitter calling Arsene a bellend and then six months later sold him for 8 million. not quite sure what else we could have done.
besides, Koscienly is much better anyway.