Perspective People

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21-12-2015, 06:23 AM
Seymour Butts

Perspective People

As you can see I have been a member of this group for sometime. In the words of Mourinho I am more of a "voyeur" and do not post much. However, having read so much on here over the years I still see Wenger being questioned. Now I am no Wengerite and I do not agree with some of the things he does. However, people need to get a bit of perspective here. Wenger has wine 16 trophies (including charity shield) in 19/20 years. He moved us from Highbury to a 60k seater stadium and kept us in top 4 and qualified for knock out stages or CL whilst doing so. He revolutionised not only Arsenal but English foot ball as a whole. He was voted coach of the year at the SPOTY awards twice. He was voted manager of the season 3/4 times. He is an OBE. He has bought some of the best football ever seen in this country. We are the 7th richest club in the world and totally self sustained unlike Chelsea/man
City etc. He has overseen more PL games than all other managers in the PL combined. He is currently the longest serving "one club" manager in PL currently and only Alex Furguson can surpass that record in terms of the all time record. He has given us the likes of Henry, Sanchez, Ozil, Pires, Lunjberg, Viera, Petit, Overmars, Fabregas, Cech, Cambell, Bergkamp. He managed a team that went unbeaten for 49 games! Ok he didn't win a trophy for 8 years.....but since he has money to spend he has won 2 trophies in the last 2 years.....not the PL granted but other clubs have never won a trophy!!!

Do I agree with everything he does??? No! Would I like to have won the PL in last 10 years? Of course! However, just take a moment to read back everything above......how people can question him is beyond belief. LVG... Supposed to be one of top manages in football.....would I swap him for Wenger??? Would I Fuk!!!!!

Perspective people!!!!
21-12-2015, 07:56 AM
Letters

I think people should be questioning Wenger if we don't challenge strongly for the title this year but I do agree, as I'm sure you know if you read this board, that the level of stick he gets on here is ludicrous. Every bump in the road is met by a chorus of "Wenger Out" posts. I don't think supporters of any other club would be doing that after the last 2 years and this year where we've qualified for the CL last 16 and are currently right in the title mix.
The 'last 10 years' argument is trotted out but it's a lazy, simplistic argument which doesn't take into account what we were up against in the first 8 years of that period or acknowledge how things have got better in the last 2.
A poor result tonight will bring a new chorus of "Wenger Out" posts, it's just the way things are on here. Meh.
21-12-2015, 08:17 AM
Power n Glory

If Man Utd went on to win the FA Cup, do you think Man Utd fans would want LVG as a coach?

The two FA Cups you mention is a lazy argument and way too simplitsic. Formed under the assumption that fans are just pissed off by the lack of silverware.
21-12-2015, 09:05 AM
Globalgunner

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seymour Butts

As you can see I have been a member of this group for sometime. In the words of Mourinho I am more of a "voyeur" and do not post much. However, having read so much on here over the years I still see Wenger being questioned. Now I am no Wengerite and I do not agree with some of the things he does. However, people need to get a bit of perspective here. Wenger has wine 16 trophies (including charity shield) in 19/20 years. He moved us from Highbury to a 60k seater stadium and kept us in top 4 and qualified for knock out stages or CL whilst doing so. He revolutionised not only Arsenal but English foot ball as a whole. He was voted coach of the year at the SPOTY awards twice. He was voted manager of the season 3/4 times. He is an OBE. He has bought some of the best football ever seen in this country. We are the 7th richest club in the world and totally self sustained unlike Chelsea/man
City etc. He has overseen more PL games than all other managers in the PL combined. He is currently the longest serving "one club" manager in PL currently and only Alex Furguson can surpass that record in terms of the all time record. He has given us the likes of Henry, Sanchez, Ozil, Pires, Lunjberg, Viera, Petit, Overmars, Fabregas, Cech, Cambell, Bergkamp. He managed a team that went unbeaten for 49 games! Ok he didn't win a trophy for 8 years.....but since he has money to spend he has won 2 trophies in the last 2 years.....not the PL granted but other clubs have never won a trophy!!!

Do I agree with everything he does??? No! Would I like to have won the PL in last 10 years? Of course! However, just take a moment to read back everything above......how people can question him is beyond belief. LVG... Supposed to be one of top manages in football.....would I swap him for Wenger??? Would I Fuk!!!!!

Perspective people!!!!

Given your shallow expectations of this club. I guess we could win the Fa cup this year and all would be dandy. Give the man another 3 year contract. You are the one who should get some perspective. Wengers time has long past. that great team of 2000-2004 should have won a lot more instead of being perennial CL no hopers. Why?, its obvious Wengers tactical deficiencies could not move even that great collection of talent over the line.
Great young managers are waiting in the wings, we have the means to achieve great things at this club. Wenger should get out of the way of progress.
21-12-2015, 09:25 AM
Letters

Quote:

Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

If Man Utd went on to win the FA Cup, do you think Man Utd fans would want LVG as a coach?

If they finished 3rd and won the Cup and their fans thought there was potential for them to push on under him and challenge for the title again then maybe.
I wouldn't want LVG as our manager, he's spent a shitload of money, they play awful football and they're not looking like winning the league.

Quote:

The two FA Cups you mention is a lazy argument and way too simplitsic. Formed under the assumption that fans are just pissed off by the lack of silverware.

So you'd want Wenger out if we'd won the league last year?! Of course it's because of the lack of silverware. Wenger has always had some of the flaws people hammer him for, back in the day when we were hoovering up titles and FA Cups regularly no-one wanted him gone because of it.
21-12-2015, 09:31 AM
Letters

Quote:

Originally Posted by Globalgunner

Given your shallow expectations of this club...
... we have the means to achieve great things at this club

You understand those expectations and those means are because of Wenger?

I actually agree that side back in the day could and should have won more. As I said some people seem to think that Wenger has suddenly developed flaws. Rubbish, he always had flaws but he has good points too and no-one was calling for his head back in the day because of the flaws. And, the point is, the next guy will have flaws too. Possibly more serious ones. Clearly at some point we will have a new manager and Wenger's time is probably near the end, but two years ago we had the financial clout to compete more seriously, it's had an immediate impact in terms of silverware and right now we're in the title mix. So long as we stay there I see no reason to scream "Wenger Out" after every poor result. It'll happen again tonight if we don't win.
21-12-2015, 09:41 AM
Gooner23

Hasn't this conversation been done to death in all the other threads. Don't agree with some of the vitriol Wenger has faced (as I'm sure many don't), but we have under achieved and under performed in the league over the last few seasons. With the same mistakes being made over and over. Its going ok at the moment, but I'm still unconvinced we've really turned a corner. He's not getting sacked but I'd like to see him step down at the end of this contract, hopefully with another league title under his belt.
21-12-2015, 09:52 AM
Letters

Imagine Wenger had been sacked 2 years ago, a new manager had come in, signed players like Ozil, Sanchez and Cech, won 2 FA Cups in a row and was currently right in the title mix. I seriously doubt anyone would be calling for their head. The financial situation changed a couple of years ago, the expectations change accordingly and while us failing to challenge for the title was disappointing the FA Cup win mitigated somewhat. I do expect us to challenge for the title properly this year, if we don't then Wenger should go. But is it so unreasonably to think we should assess where we are at the end of the season?
21-12-2015, 09:54 AM
Kano

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gooner23

Hasn't this conversation been done to death in all the other threads. Don't agree with some of the vitriol Wenger has faced (as I'm sure many don't), but we have under achieved and under performed in the league over the last few seasons. With the same mistakes being made over and over. Its going ok at the moment, but I'm still unconvinced we've really turned a corner. He's not getting sacked but I'd like to see him step down at the end of this contract, hopefully with another league title under his belt.

That's definitely the earliest we are going to see him leave. Fans can call out for him to be sacked but that will never happen. 2017 is the earliest we'll see the change in terms of manager, no matter what happens this season.
21-12-2015, 09:55 AM
Power n Glory

Quote:

Originally Posted by Letters To Santa

If they finished 3rd and won the Cup and their fans thought there was potential for them to push on under him and challenge for the title again then maybe.
I wouldn't want LVG as our manager, he's spent a shitload of money, they play awful football and they're not looking like winning the league.

So you'd want Wenger out if we'd won the league last year?! Of course it's because of the lack of silverware. Wenger has always had some of the flaws people hammer him for, back in the day when we were hoovering up titles and FA Cups regularly no-one wanted him gone because of it.

The question is if you think they’d be appeased with the FA Cup win. What if they didn’t feel he’s capable of winning the league and he spends unwisely in the transfer window, wasting resources? What if the style of play remains boring and the injuries just keep on racking up? That’s the current state they are in. Will an FA Cup negate all those complaints? I seriously doubt it. They’d want to see improvement in each of those areas.

What if Arsenal fans have similar complaints about our style of play, never looking like winning the league or the way we handle transfers? It’s not just about the trophies. Not for everyone. I’ve said before I’d want Wenger gone if he’d won another league title because he’d leave on a high at least. What we’re seeing in the league is exceptional. I doubt it will be replicated again and I can’t see Wenger going on a crazy title winning streak before he retires.
21-12-2015, 10:09 AM
Özim

Wenger has had his chance now, there's too much wrong about his methods and he's not the man for us going forward. Tactically he's inept, he's been found out time and time again when we've had key games at key times, the injuries are just ridiculous and have been for as long as I remember and still nothing seems to be done about it (it's like we're in denial and just thinK it's bad luck), his transfer policy is heavily flawed, time and time again he just won't do the necessary to make us genuine challengers for the title.

On top of that there's the awful football we play, yes 1% of the time when it comes off it can be good but the rest of the time it's dull and repetitive, as far as our form is concerned we never seem to play like a team on top form, more often than not we're scraping wins rather than winning games at a canter with great performances.

I don't seem him winning anything major and don't see him taking us to the next level, he refues to adapt and change and his methodology is now outdated, yes he won the FA cup which is great but at the end of the day winning that competition isn't the hardest as you can easily get favourable draws and avoid the best teams. He's had 20 years to succeed in the CL and all he's managed in that time is one final, this is despite having one of the best teams in history at one stage, nowadays we jsut seem to make up the numbers every season.

So let's just thank him for what he's done shall we and then move him on so we can finally look forward to something different, probably more exciting and more unpredictable, perhaps a new era where we can finally realise the potential of the club and not just settle for being 3rd/4th place runners up every season, which if not for the CL cash cow which shouldn't ever exist IMO (not for teams other than the winners, or the winners and runners up at the very most) would be meaningless after the 1st 1-2 times of reaching that position.
21-12-2015, 10:11 AM
Özim

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kano

That's definitely the earliest we are going to see him leave. Fans can call out for him to be sacked but that will never happen. 2017 is the earliest we'll see the change in terms of manager, no matter what happens this season.

He'll probably end up staying beyond that if people continue to take such a relaxed attitude, so it could be 2019-2020 and beyond, is that what people really want?

The board and owner I'm pretty sure can't wait to give him a new contract, he's everything a club who are not overly concerned about winning but very concerned about the size of profits would want.
21-12-2015, 10:11 AM
Power n Glory

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gooner23

Hasn't this conversation been done to death in all the other threads. Don't agree with some of the vitriol Wenger has faced (as I'm sure many don't), but we have under achieved and under performed in the league over the last few seasons. With the same mistakes being made over and over. Its going ok at the moment, but I'm still unconvinced we've really turned a corner. He's not getting sacked but I'd like to see him step down at the end of this contract, hopefully with another league title under his belt.

:gp: It's been done to death. We're on the same page with that post. Would like to see him leave with one last league title.
21-12-2015, 10:12 AM
Kano

Quote:

Originally Posted by Özim

He'll probably end up staying beyond that if people continue to take such a relaxed attitude, so it could be 2019-2020 and beyond.

And what are you actively going to do outside of posting on a forum, something that could help develop things in the way you want them to?
21-12-2015, 10:17 AM
Özim

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kano

And what are you actively going to do outside of posting on a forum, something that could help develop things in the way you want them to?

I'm not doing much, but I don't swell the clubs coughers either.

In reality the only thing that will change things is people making their feelings clear at games and at any time they are able to speak up, that won't happen of course, but nobody can be surprised if he continues well beyond his contract, things seem to be good for him right now and so a new contract may find itself to a table near him soon. When it goes wrong this season and it will IMO, nothing will change, he's position is as secure as you will ever find at any club in the world.
21-12-2015, 10:19 AM
Kano

Sure but all very easy to say from the safety of home. The mentality of the paying fan is fundamentally different to your own.
21-12-2015, 10:23 AM
Özim

You're probably right and that's why I really don't see an end to his reign in the near future, which if you want to see the club progress isn't good news.

He does what he does well, but we won't be anything but a 2nd tier club until the day he goes, not financially perhaps but certainly on the pitch.
21-12-2015, 10:37 AM
Power n Glory

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kano

Sure but all very easy to say from the safety of home. The mentality of the paying fan is fundamentally different to your own.

You're making Zim's point.
21-12-2015, 10:38 AM
Letters

Quote:

Originally Posted by Özim

In reality the only thing that will change things is people making their feelings clear at games and at any time they are able to speak up, that won't happen of course.

Well no, because our home record is generally very good. You're going to look pretty stupid starting Wenger Out chants when we're winning a game and close to the top of the league.
The only way people can make a real difference is to stop supporting the club financially.
Trouble is, plenty of people are queueing up to take their place.

His position is secure because he has always delivered what the board were expecting. He's never had a car crash season like Klopp did last year or Mourinho did this.
21-12-2015, 11:00 AM
Niall_Quinn

Of course Wenger is going to stay until 2017 - and well beyond that if the board gets its wish. Wenger delivers big bucks for the rich guys and he's the best at doing it. The rich guys invest ZERO or as close to it as makes no odds (compared to the millions or even billions invested by owners at other clubs) and the revenues and share price just keep on rising and now there are dividends too for "invaluable" services rendered! Come on, that's the free lunch everybody agrees can never be had. Wenger has achieved the impossible, he's simply the best at what he does.

In terms of football, well not much has happened but as has already been pointed out, it would be unreasonable to criticise a manager for under-performing on the pitch for a decade when over the same period one board has walked away with half a billion in their wallets and the next can see an even bigger pay day materialising right before their eyes. It's true, fans really do need to get some perspective and they need to decide what football is supposed to be about.
21-12-2015, 01:31 PM
Özil's Panoramic View

The OP could have made his post in any random thread, instead of starting a new one to discuss the same thing that gets discussed everywhere on here everyday. :sulk:
21-12-2015, 03:34 PM
fakeyank

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seymour Butts

As you can see I have been a member of this group for sometime. In the words of Mourinho I am more of a "voyeur" and do not post much. However, having read so much on here over the years I still see Wenger being questioned. Now I am no Wengerite and I do not agree with some of the things he does. However, people need to get a bit of perspective here. Wenger has wine 16 trophies (including charity shield) in 19/20 years. He moved us from Highbury to a 60k seater stadium and kept us in top 4 and qualified for knock out stages or CL whilst doing so. He revolutionised not only Arsenal but English foot ball as a whole. He was voted coach of the year at the SPOTY awards twice. He was voted manager of the season 3/4 times. He is an OBE. He has bought some of the best football ever seen in this country. We are the 7th richest club in the world and totally self sustained unlike Chelsea/man
City etc. He has overseen more PL games than all other managers in the PL combined. He is currently the longest serving "one club" manager in PL currently and only Alex Furguson can surpass that record in terms of the all time record. He has given us the likes of Henry, Sanchez, Ozil, Pires, Lunjberg, Viera, Petit, Overmars, Fabregas, Cech, Cambell, Bergkamp. He managed a team that went unbeaten for 49 games! Ok he didn't win a trophy for 8 years.....but since he has money to spend he has won 2 trophies in the last 2 years.....not the PL granted but other clubs have never won a trophy!!!

Do I agree with everything he does??? No! Would I like to have won the PL in last 10 years? Of course! However, just take a moment to read back everything above......how people can question him is beyond belief. LVG... Supposed to be one of top manages in football.....would I swap him for Wenger??? Would I Fuk!!!!!

Perspective people!!!!

I agree. You have changed my mind.
21-12-2015, 03:57 PM
Letters

Quote:

Originally Posted by fakeyank

I agree. You have changed my mind.

:lol:
21-12-2015, 10:05 PM
Coney

Quote:

Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

:gp: It's been done to death. We're on the same page with that post. Would like to see him leave with one last league title.

Yeah - this year he will win us the treble and then surprise everyone by standing down in favour of Pep Guardiola.