Arsene's Perspective - Is this the main problem?

[IBK]

Right - this isn't another thread just moaning about AW. But it is an attempt to analyse what is going on at the club these days.

What seems to be riling a lot of people is that our best players want out - but the deadwood is staying. I don't think this is something that we can blame the manager for directly - becuase by all accounts he is willing to offload Bendtner; Diaby; Eboue; Denilson; Almunia; Vela etc. But indirectly it does point to me to a shocking lack of judgment.

I mean all managers get it wrong sometimes - but for a manager who was famed for astute judgment when it comes to players it is surprising to say the least that so many of the 'failed first teamers' at AFC have been rewarded with such big contracts that they now can't be moved without losing money. This suggests a lack of judgment - not just in the light of his players' failure to do the business on the pitch, but in terms of their propensity to get injured, and their lack of winning mentality. I can't think of any other team - even Citeh who seem to collect fairly average players like football cards - who have so many underperformers earning so much (at least relative to the club's resources).

The news today that Diaby is injured again (away from AFC), so we won't be able to offload him and will therefore almost certainly miss out on a decent transfer fee is almost as depressing as the indication that our better players have lost faith. But the worst of it is that overpayment of underperformers has used up valuable resources that could have been used to reward the talent in our team.

Now for me there are 2 credible explanations. The first is that Wenger has 'ruined' his bright prospects. There may be an element of truth to this - because persisting with/rewarding under-performances; playing players out of position; failure to address defending as a team and cultivating complacency are undoubtedly factors.

But for me the more significant explanation is a lack of perspective, and the implications are worrying. We have long since known that AW has complete faith in his methods - which is why he has insisted on not investing more in transfers in his now failed project team - and why he has until now not addressed problems that are apparent to most other experts; pundits and Gooners.

For me, this explains partly the Cesc/Nasri protracted saga's too. I have little doubt that AW believes/believed he could convince both players to stay - just as he seemed to have done with Cesc last year. But players have now seen through this, and do not share his belief - and I wonder if doesn't appreciate this. I wonder also whether the fact that we seem to be missing out on transfer targets is part of the same process - that AW simply doesn't see how he is now percieved by the most ambitious players.

Thoughts?

[Kano]

its an issue with many clubs and many players. wages have escalated everywhere and now clubs that want to offload certain players are hitting a wall because of the wages they are on. see j.cole, bellamy etc

[budesonide]

wenger is a wan*ker -- there, I said it in four words. :

[IBK]

its an issue with many clubs and many players. wages have escalated everywhere and now clubs that want to offload certain players are hitting a wall because of the wages they are on. see j.cole, bellamy etc

True - but there do seem to be a very high number of players at Arsenal who are on very high wages having been rewarded for potential that has simply not been realised. I'd say that this is slightly different from Bellamy or Cole who were both half decent back in the day but have simply (in the case of J Cole at least) gone stale.

And the rush to tie in our underperformers to lucrative contracts contrasts with a serial failure over the past few seasons to tie in our performers. Its frustrating, to be sure.

[selassie]

Yes the problem starts & ends with Arsene, obviously other factors play a part but when you look at the number of failed projects players & average established players who we are looking to move on it raises an eyebrow. If you then look at what they are reportedly earning & the lack of interest show in them it's a very worrying situation.

What really baffles me more than anything is we pride ourselves on being "financially sound" and "doing things the right way", yet we've been rewarding/renewing players wages when they have given little to nothing in terms of positive contribution.

How on earth do players like Denilson & Diaby justify 50K per week long term contracts? It really defies belief & makes a mockery of this supposed sound financial business model to the playing staff.

[Joker]

The players have definitely lost faith in Wengerball IMO, which clearly explains why players like Nasri and Cesc want out. And like you say, the manager himself I think knows deep down that his philosophy is flawed, but because he becomes so ideologically invested in this way of managing, he fails to see what his brain already knows: that Wengerball as a style of play is not suited to the EPL, is unable to cope against different styles of play and more fundamentally, the players he has assembled in the last 5-6 years are not good enough to play within this demanding setup, which requires players who can slot into different positions on the pitch, have a high level of football intelligence and great stamina. It's obvious that players like Denilson, Diaby, Bendtner are not good enough or flexible enough to play this style.

I've drawn parallels before to those who staunchly believe in free market economics, despite its manifest failures especially over the last few years. Many were so convinced that these theories worked in practise that when it all blew up in their face, they couldn't accept that the whole intellectual edifice had collapsed around them, so they persisted with the old certainties, despite knowing that the results would not be different no matter how often you peddle the BS.

I think the same is happening with Wenger, who simply refuses to accept that we need a new footballing philosophy at Arsenal, and also a new philosophy of footballing development, which relies more heavily on ensuring that once a certain group of players are nearing the end of their time at the club, we immediately look to replenish the squad with top quality, experienced players, paying the premium if necessary, and relying on them to form the spine of the team for years to come. We should maintain a strong youth setup, definitely, but instead of dismantling the squad in a short period of time, replacing them with youngsters, we should introduce youth players slowly and steadily, allowing them to learn from the experienced players, so that when they're ready to take over from the previous generation, they have the experience and most crucially the mentality needed to succeed. This is what Wenger failed to do; he used some form of "shock therapy", throwing all the youngsters into the first team all at once; with these youngsters lacking players with strong mentalities around them, they picked up bad habits from each other, which is why players like Denilson, Diaby, Bendtner etc have barely improved since 2006, and play is such a lackadaisical manner

[IBK]

wenger is a wan*ker -- there, I said it four words. :yes:

Not what I was saying, at least. I was asking rather whether we are looking at a case of terminal loss of perspective.

[Kano]

True - but there do seem to be a very high number of players at Arsenal who are on very high wages having been rewarded for potential that has simply not been realised. I'd say that this is slightly different from Bellamy or Cole who were both half decent back in the day but have simply (in the case of J Cole at least) gone stale.

And the rush to tie in our underperformers to lucrative contracts contrasts with a serial failure over the past few seasons to tie in our performers. Its frustrating, to be sure.

the club wasnt wrong to hand out the contracts as such, as the talent was/is there to fulfill it. however the crucial element missing is the mental strength to go that extra mile, something that i'm sure all within the club would have been achieved. so from their perspective at the time, it made sense to hand the money out.

people flippantly call the squad garbage when obviously they are not, they fell down with an element that the manager wasn't able to stabilize into the team.

[IBK]

The players have definitely lost faith in Wengerball IMO, which clearly explains why players like Nasri and Cesc want out. And like you say, the manager himself I think knows deep down that his philosophy is flawed, but because he becomes so ideologically invested in this way of managing, he fails to see what his brain already knows: that Wengerball as a style of play is not suited to the EPL, is unable to cope against different styles of play and more fundamentally, the players he has assembled in the last 5-6 years are not good enough to play within this demanding setup, which requires players who can slot into different positions on the pitch, have a high level of football intelligence and great stamina. It's obvious that players like Denilson, Diaby, Bendtner are not good enough or flexible enough to play this style.

I've drawn parallels before to those who staunchly believe in free market economics, despite its manifest failures especially over the last few years. Many were so convinced that these theories worked in practise that when it all blew up in their face, they couldn't accept that the whole intellectual edifice had collapsed around them, so they persisted with the old certainties, despite knowing that the results would not be different no matter how often you peddle the BS.

I think the same is happening with Wenger, who simply refuses to accept that we need a new footballing philosophy at Arsenal, and also a new philosophy of footballing development, which relies more heavily on ensuring that once a certain group of players are nearing the end of their time at the club, we immediately look to replenish the squad with top quality, experienced players, paying the premium if necessary, and relying on them to form the spine of the team for years to come. We should maintain a strong youth setup, definitely, but instead of dismantling the squad in a short period of time, replacing them with youngsters, we should introduce youth players slowly and steadily, allowing them to learn from the experienced players, so that when they're ready to take over from the previous generation, they have the experience and most crucially the mentality needed to succeed. This is what Wenger failed to do; he used some form of "shock therapy", throwing all the youngsters into the first team all at once; with these youngsters lacking players with strong mentalities around them, they picked up bad habits from each other, which is why players like Denilson, Diaby, Bendtner etc have barely improved since 2006.

The problem is, i reckon, that when you put all your eggs in one basket of youth you get too close to them that you lose perspective. Wenger wanted them to do well so badly, believed that they would come good enough to reward them in a manner incommensurate with their ability/worth that he couldn't see/admit that they weren't good enough.

Its fine margins, because I do believe he almost made it - but he has been let down by too many of his players - and that means that he's been let down ultimately for his own lack of judgment. This is what concerns me - given that he is paid £6M pa for his astuteness as a manager. And it concerns me because I don't think that a lack of judgment/perspective is going to be solved by buying more players in the transfer market.

[budesonide]

Not what I was saying, at least. I was asking rather whether we are looking at a case of terminal loss of perspective.

wasn't meant as a paraphrase of your post; merely suggesting what the root cause of our predicament might be, albeit much glibly.