Is Wenger stale or is it us?

[IBK]

This occured to me after my debate with Falvs on the other thread.

There's been much (and some justified) criticism of Wenger, his methods, philosophy and motivation.

He's been accused of being stuck in his ways; unable to adapt and lacking ideas, and the feeling is that we're stagnating as a club and that our manager is stale.

But I wonder whether this is really the case? The tactical 'naivity' that we complain about; the focus on his team rather than the opposition; the stubborn adherence to his methods have always been his hallmarks - he hasn't changed. We talk about the rest of the league catching him up - and they have - but is this not more a case of other clubs making the most of the information and methods available than Wenger taking his eye off the ball.

I suppose that you could say that the reason we've fallen down the pecking order is nothing whatsoever to do with lack of ideas/motivation. Its the simple fact that more money=better players.

On the other hand - faced with a changing football landscape, we fans are suffering from shattered illusions; the humbling feeling of no longer being top dogs and the corrosive effect of transfer seasons made depressing because of want-away talent. And as fans, we are talking ourselves into a bleaker outlook that the situation merits.

Is it us that are getting stale rather than Wenger?

[Kano]

he has not done all at his disposal to end a drought which is having an effect on how long we can keep our best players.

ironically it took the end of last season where we confirmed third place to convince me we have seen the best of the great man.

things are stale and it is time to make the big step and try something new.

whether it improves or worsens things is worth finding out, rather than heading into another season expecting exactly the same pattern.

[Flavs]

One thing I have noticed that Wenger gets blamed/credited for things at the club I have never seen another manager criticised/credited with. It's truly astounding at times that he gets the blame/credit.

Stadium moves
Stadium sponsorship deals
Commercial enterprise
Marketing architecture
TV deals
Ticket prices
Being in charge of the board
Blocking Usmanov/Welcoming Kroenkeeeee
All club press releases
The colour of the seats in the stadium

and that's not to mention the tactics, purchases, wages, transfer fee's, kit colour, youth and recruitment policies and so on. He is either the busiest man on earth or many fans seem to be over doing it a little.

[Cripps_orig]

Add appointing his own boss in Gazidis to that list

[Grebbo]

No manager in the world could get the current Arsenal FC and it's business model to finish above the two Manchester clubs.

Finishing 3rd last season was an achievement.

It's important to remember that.

We'll have punched above our weight again if we finish 3rd this season seeing as Chelsea are spunking £100m this summer....again.

The only manager who'd give those ****s a run for their money is Brian Clough in his prime.

Wenger's good but he's not Clough.

Wenger

[Kano]

One thing I have noticed that Wenger gets blamed/credited for things at the club I have never seen another manager criticised/credited with. It's truly astounding at times that he gets the blame/credit.

Stadium moves
Stadium sponsorship deals
Commercial enterprise
Marketing architecture
TV deals
Ticket prices
Being in charge of the board
Blocking Usmanov/Welcoming Kroenkeeeee
All club press releases
The colour of the seats in the stadium

and that's not to mention the tactics, purchases, wages, transfer fee's, kit colour, youth and recruitment policies and so on. He is either the busiest man on earth or many fans seem to be over doing it a little.

it's easy to understand why, given the fact he openly discusses far more about the club than what happens on the pitch and with the players. he has a philosophy on how a club should operate and has without question been heavily involved with a lot of back room work, given the amount of leverage and respect given to him by the directors.

[Ronny M. Scanlon]

it took the end of last season where we confirmed third place to convince me we have seen the best of the great man.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Adding to what Terry said, one must note there is not one single thing in Flav's list about AFC that is going against AWs well publicised views about the way the world should spin. From the seat colours, to what's available in the canteen, to the bigger stadium (remember even Dein, the most powerful man in AFC's modern history couldn't get his way here), AW has gotten all the things he publicly expressed that a mere Fergie wouldn't even dream of uttering out loud.

The thing is we know so much about AWs opinions because he chooses to expresses so much to the world, so let's not pretend that a majority of these accusations are being fabricated; we know he hates Money City's model (which we are the exact opposite of), dislikes Chelsea's functional football (which we are the exact opposite off), professes a "belief" in a more egalitarian than meritocratic/competitive pay structure (the Denilsons must kiss his picture every night before they go to sleep), believes cup competitions barring the CL are pretty useless (now we fail to do well in any of them), believes the manager should be the all and all in the club footballingwise (always complains bitterly about any club who dares hire a TD), how unfair it is that goals don't equal points (we're always among topscorers), a managers success should be judged by far more "important" criteria than just mere results/ trophies.... and blah blah blah. Do people expect us to think it's a miracle that Arsenal FC in about a decade has not contravened any of his 1001 publicly expressed views?? AW is the only head of any public organisation that I know that has gotten everything from the organisation that he publicly asks for; the Pope, the Queen, Cameron, Assad and Simon Cowell must all be jealous.

It's like we all shared a dream happily together, one person took it over and now we're as powerless as anyone stuck in Elm street.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

We need to be sincere when we have these sort of discussions, unless we'll keep repeating ourselves in 30 different topic titles. How we can ask if it's us that need to change and not AW is mind burgling, seeing as whether we puke/cry/stab/murder/rape/sing/ or whatever on this rollercoaster, it won't stop, until the ride has taken its course, then we can get off. This is AW's club/dream/vision/ride, you can jump off it in motion, but only then would you truly lose all rights to being called a fan.

[tpyo]

I agree with a lot of sentiment in this thread. The footballing world has made it difficult for Wenger and Arsenal's model to work well.

I think we can agree that in a world without the insane investment of clubs like citeh and chelski we'd all still be in love with Wenger so the question becomes how long football will last on this insane bender of unsustainable business models. Is it a bubble? After all, if the bubble pops then Arsenal are poised to clean up and begin a decade of dominance.

If it doesn't though then we'll almost always be a club hitting an average of 3rd/4th place.