Do you want Wenger sacked as manager?

[Özim]

You think a poor manager would have finished 3rd this year?

I don't think many managers in the world could have seen his two best midfielders leave, make some panic buys and still finish 3rd. That said, why did last summer happen? Wenger said he could write a book about it. I hope he does one day, I'd love to read it. I don't believe the mess last summer was all his fault but he's not blameless either. There are some more encouraging signs this summer - doing business early, trying to bolster the squad and show a bit of ambition. But we have to sort out the van Persie situation, we can't let that rumble on all summer and see him leave in August when it's too late to sign replacements.

The opposition fans I talk to just can't believe the way Arsenal fans berate Wenger. Several clubs have spent a huge amount of money trying to leapfrog us and repeatedly failed. City have succeeded of course but chuck a billion quid at any PL club and they'd want to be finishing above us. How much did 'King Kenny' spend? One league cup, an awful league season and the sack. Top 4 should not be the limit of our ambition. I don't believe it is, although it is the number one priority for Wenger and the board and the reality is in the modern game that has to be our priority. The money and prestige of being in the CL is just too important to dismiss. We should be winning trophies here and there but the achievement of finishing in the CL places every single year for 15 years should not be dismissed. But the failure to win trophies shouldn't be overlooked either.

In brief: no, he shouldn't be sacked. The idea of sacking a manager who finished 3rd behind Utd, who have the best manager around, and a side who bought the title is ludicrous.

I said he's not that great a manager and he isn't, top managers don't go 7 years without success I'm afraid...3rd/4th place is all very good but it's pretty meaningless in any way other than financially.

The opposition fans, well yes cos the grass is always greener on the other side, I'd love to see how they'd feel in our position if their club basically has no chance of ever winning anything, 3rd place is all very good but not if it means giving up any chance of success anywhere else which is what it basically means for us.

It's not ludicrous to sack a manager who's been at a top club and has won nothing in 7 years, he's failed at every level in terms of success, his side have even been beaten by inferior sides, we've seen some of the worst beatings in Arsenal's history under him as well and in recent years' it's got worse. The 3rd place was good but let's be honest here, Spurs bottled it big team and the Redknapp for England thing definitely unsettled them as the bad run seemed to start around then....so we had our fair share of luck there.

[Letters]

I said he's not that great a manager and he isn't top, managers don't go 7 years without success I'm afraid...3rd/4th place is all very good but it's pretty meaningless in any way other than financially.

Unfortunately in the modern game the finances are the most important thing. We can't do what we did in the 'thoroughly enjoyable' 92/93 season and finish mid-table at the expense of the cups. Liverpool did that this year and their season has been, in your words, a car crash. Had they won the FA Cup Final then that would have mitigated it and Dalglish would probably have kept his job. Fine lines.

Being in the CL is not just about finance anyway. It's about the prestige of the club, making us attractive to players, giving us an international profile. We tend not to go in for the very top players these days - it's not easy to when City, Chelsea and ManYoo can all outspend us - but it still makes is more attractive to the players we are after.

The opposition fans, well yes cos the grass is always greener on the other side, I'd love to see how they'd feel in our position if their club basically has no chance of ever winning anything

Most clubs don't have a chance of winning anything. Ever. The idea that we don't have a chance is ludicrous. We've been in several Cup Finals and loads of semi-finals since we last won something. And we've had a couple of title challenges too. We've failed to finish the job on each occasion but we surely have more chance of winning something than fans of clubs who never get into those positions.

It's not ludicrous to sack a manager who's been at a top club and has won nothing in 7 years, he's failed at every level in terms of success

The first part of that is true, the 2nd is nonsense. You don't see 3rd place as success. The whole football world disagrees with you. As I said clubs spend big to try and achieve that. Syn called Spurs collapse way before the England thing came up. Their first game after the England thing they battered Newcastle 5-0, it was only after that they collapsed. As you say, they bottled it. We put a great run together and won the 'must win' games in the run in when we needed to. Dismiss it as luck all you like, you'd be the first to point to the gap between us and the top two and say "the league table never lies" but you dismiss our achievement of finishing 3rd as 'luck' because otherwise you'd have to give Wenger some credit which you can't bring yourself to do.

[Özim]

Unfortunately in the modern game the finances are the most important thing. We can't do what we did in the 'thoroughly enjoyable' 92/93 season and finish mid-table at the expense of the cups. Liverpool did that this year and their season has been, in your words, a car crash. Had they won the FA Cup Final then that would have mitigated it and Dalglish would probably have kept his job. Fine lines.

We won 2 cups in 92/93 had Liverpool done the same it would have been a decent season, the problem is that they only won the CC and had a bad league season, fine lines yes but Kenny got sacked because of this, somehow Wenger gets away with it season after season.

Being in the CL is not just about finance anyway. It's about the prestige of the club, making us attractive to players, giving us an international profile. We tend not to go in for the very top players these days - it's not easy to when City, Chelsea and ManYoo can all outspend us - but it still makes is more attractive to the players we are after.


Most clubs don't have a chance of winning anything. Ever. The idea that we don't have a chance is ludicrous. We've been in several Cup Finals and loads of semi-finals since we last won something. And we've had a couple of title challenges too. We've failed to finish the job on each occasion but we surely have more chance of winning something than fans of clubs who never get into those positions.

Prestige, for a competition that allows 4 clubs from certain countries into it? The competition is a joke IMO and only the money makes the marketing boys see it as anything but that, no competition should allow 4 teams from a country into it, especially when 3 have won nothing. We don't sign any top players so I'm not sure what attracting players has anything to do with, the players we sign tend to be unknowns who are decent value, they'd sign regardless of whether we got into the CL or not.

We're not most clubs, historically we're one of the biggest clubs in England, we had success before Wenger as well, in addition we have a big stadium and money to spend...not many clubs have this luxury. As for the rich owners, as I've said before, I feel you can compete but you need to spend some money, if you buy the right players and spend on quality you can be successful. Man U would have won this year if not for an incharacteristic collapse and their team isn't really that good.

As for the cup finals etc, these fine lines are fine lines we always seem to be on the wrong side of, this tells me it's down to more than bad luck, I'd put it down to problems in the team and management, there's plenty of games we should have won but everytime we've pretty much failed to...that's says all it needs to IMO, once or twice might be bad luck but not the amount of times it's happened to us. This point is critical as it shows we'll never win anything under Wenger again IMO, other clubs fans patience would soon run out if they were stuck in the same boat, making up the numbers every season isn't fun, as I've said before what Wenger has done is taken away any hope of us winning something.

The first part of that is true, the 2nd is nonsense. You don't see 3rd place as success. The whole football world disagrees with you. As I said clubs spend big to try and achieve that. Syn called Spurs collapse way before the England thing came up. Their first game after the England thing they battered Newcastle 5-0, it was only after that they collapsed. As you say, they bottled it. We put a great run together and won the 'must win' games in the run in when we needed to. Dismiss it as luck all you like, you'd be the first to point to the gap between us and the top two and say "the league table never lies" but you dismiss our achievement of finishing 3rd as 'luck' because otherwise you'd have to give Wenger some credit which you can't bring yourself to do.

Spurs bottled it no question and the Redknapp thing certainly had a big impact, before this they were in great form and we had no hope of catching them, this won't happen every season that's for sure, we very nearly bottled it again ourselves but Spurs just blew it for a 2nd time with two games to go.

[Kano]

we need a change now but a lot rests on the rvp situation. if he leaves then under no circumstances can we afford to lose the manager too - that would be august/sept 2011 all over again.

as MO said earlier in the thread, he won't be going until the end of next season at the earliest anyway.

[Kano]

I said he's not that great a manager and he isn't, top managers don't go 7 years without success I'm afraid...3rd/4th place is all very good but it's pretty meaningless in any way other than financially.

he is no longer among the very elite in the game but he is still a very good manager. you are being far too dismissive by saying that 3/4 finishes every seasons means he's not that great. by saying that, that means every other manager and team are very poor - the sort of stuff that players and people inside the game would not agree with.

3/4 is not a trophy of course and no need to shout from the roof tops about it but it still takes an awful lot of talent to maintain that position in the modern world of football, where very few advantages are found outside of having money. where once only certain teams had the training, diet, tactic and worldwide player knowledge along with the better players as the edge, that information is now common place on every football continent and to stay so close to the top every season requires a lot.

[Power n Glory]

Sacked, steps down, retires....don't care. I just want a change in management. He'll be remembered as a legend.

[Letters]

Prestige, for a competition that allows 4 clubs from certain countries into it? The competition is a joke IMO and only the money makes the marketing boys see it as anything but that, no competition should allow 4 teams from a country into it, especially when 3 have won nothing.

I agree, but whatever you think of the competition it's where top clubs want to be. Why are clubs spending big to try and get there? 109 million people watched the final last year. More than the Superbowl ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/foot...pe/8490351.stm ). And yes, I know we weren't in the final but the whole competition is massively high profile. Too high profile IMO to the detriment of other comptitions but it is what it is.

We don't sign any top players so I'm not sure what attracting players has anything to do with, the players we sign tend to be unknowns who are decent value, they'd sign regardless of whether we got into the CL or not.

I'm not sure that's true. Our more recent signings have been more established players and some of the players we're being linked with right now are not kids. Our CL qualification will undoubtably be a factor in their decisions. Also, I've no idea if RvP will sign a new contract but I tell you one thing for free - had we not qualified for the CL we'd have had no chance of keeping him. CL qualification should not be the limit of our ambitions but its importance shouldn't be underestimated. As I've said clubs are spending a LOT of money to try and achieve it and often failing.

We're not most clubs, historically we're one of the biggest clubs in England, we had success before Wenger

True but till the late 80s our successes were few and far between. We had the period of dominance in the 30s but after that we were a big club but didn't win a lot.
From 1950 to 1989 we won 3 titles (1953, 1971 & 1989). 3 FA Cups (1950, 1971, 1979) and 1 League Cup (1987). That's 7 trophies. In 40 years. Between 1953 and 1971 we won bugger all. We've always been a big club but we've not always been dripping with trophies.
Graham made us successful although the later years were bloody boring. Nice to win the trophies, not so nice to have a season ticket and go to most league games which were awful and we rarely won. Wenger took us to a whole new level - not only exceeding Graham's period of success but doing it with a style of football the like of which most Gooners never thought they'd see Arsenal play.

As for the cup finals etc, these fine lines are fine lines we always seem to be on the wrong side of, this tells me it's down to more than bad luck, I'd put it down to problems in the team and management, there's plenty of games we should have won but everytime we've pretty much failed to...that's says all it needs to IMO, once or twice might be bad luck but not the amount of times it's happened to us. This point is critical as it shows we'll never win anything under Wenger again IMO, other clubs fans patience would soon run out if they were stuck in the same boat, making up the numbers every season isn't fun, as I've said before what Wenger has done is taken away any hope of us winning something.

I agree with a lot of that and I do think Wenger should have been sacked for the lack of trophies. On the other hand it's bloody minded to deny him any credit for us finishing in the CL spots every single year. Fergie is the only other manager to have done it for any length of time and lots of other managers have spent big trying and failed. That should tell you a lot about Wenger too.

[Özim]

Interesting you mention Graham as he was on TV earlier today saying he was just interested in winning, that was his goal. I believe that's the problem with Wenger, he's not just interested in winning, he wants to do things a certain way and if you win doing this way then great, if however you don't then at least we have done things the way he believes they should be done.

In that sense he isn't a winner.

[fakeyank]

Ideally AW would resign himself. He has not stood up to his own standards and he sounds just like a CEO or board member speaking. For the sake of what he achieved with us a long time back, I hope he leaves the managerial post on a good note. If he continues the same level of WUMery as last seasons (very likely) then he should be sacked immediately!

[Letters]

I believe that's the problem with Wenger, he's not just interested in winning

Utter rubbish.

And Graham managed in a different era where a side could finish mid-table one year and in the top few the next and there was no great pressure to finish higher up the league if you weren't going to win the thing.