Match Reaction - Spuds 2-2 Arsenal

[Niall_Quinn]

Disaster

We've achieved precisely nothing intended from a project designed to propel us to the top of the European game. Nothing. Except riches for the owners and past owners of course (mustn't overlook that massive success). We are further away from a CL final than ever. We no longer routinely secure the winners or runners-up placing in the domestic league. Our once lauded style of football has vanished. After all the effort and the sacrifice of the fans we're actually behind where we were before this project began and with no signs at all we are ready to move forward.

If this is not disaster then what should it be? Epic failure? Pointless waste? Legalised robbery?

[Letters]

I doubt we'd have stayed in the top 4 had we stayed at Highbury. The fact that the billionaires rolled in ans bought up trophies left, right and centre just at the time when the stadium move did somewhat hamper us is not Wenger's fault. That said, we should have some trophies in that era. Now we have the money to compete there were some promising signs but Wenger has failed to push us on and for that he should be sacked. But he'll leave us with a squad which should be able to compete with a few additions and enough money to allow us to stay competitive.
Things could have gone better but they could certainly have gone a lot worse.

[Niall_Quinn]

I doubt we'd have stayed in the top 4 had we stayed at Highbury. The fact that the billionaires rolled in ans bought up trophies left, right and centre just at the time when the stadium move did somewhat hamper us is not Wenger's fault. That said, we should have some trophies in that era. Now we have the money to compete there were some promising signs but Wenger has failed to push us on and for that he should be sacked. But he'll leave us with a squad which should be able to compete with a few additions and enough money to allow us to stay competitive.
Things could have gone better but they could certainly have gone a lot worse.

You're still going to use the money excuse then? Even after this season?

What Leicester and West Ham and even Watford have shown us is if you give an outsider just a tiny bit more of the pie then they can do great things. Well we may not have had as much cash as the chavs and the gypos but we certainly had more of the pie than Leicester City, and for a lot longer than a single season too.

The money excuse is gone. Exposed. Dead.

What has top 4 ever actually done for us, btw? Has the CL been prestigious or embarrassing for us? Yes I know we got the cash, but how much of that was spent at the key moments when we could have really improved? When we were just a little but short? So many transfer windows.

Wenger kept us in the top 4 but consistently failed to do what it takes to go on and at least try to win that competition. A decade ago we made the final with players like Henry and Vieira in the team. Ten years on, what exactly does this Top Four Trophy give us? It has attracted the likes of Ozil and Alexis, but what have THEY given us?

I'm not trying to blame the players or anything else except one thing. One person and we know who it is. No more excuses for him.

[IBK]

You're still going to use the money excuse then? Even after this season?

What Leicester and West Ham and even Watford have shown us is if you give an outsider just a tiny bit more of the pie then they can do great things. Well we may not have had as much cash as the chavs and the gypos but we certainly had more of the pie than Leicester City, and for a lot longer than a single season too.

The money excuse is gone. Exposed. Dead.

What has top 4 ever actually done for us, btw? Has the CL been prestigious or embarrassing for us? Yes I know we got the cash, but how much of that was spent at the key moments when we could have really improved? When we were just a little but short? So many transfer windows.

Wenger kept us in the top 4 but consistently failed to do what it takes to go on and at least try to win that competition. A decade ago we made the final with players like Henry and Vieira in the team. Ten years on, what exactly does this Top Four Trophy give us? It has attracted the likes of Ozil and Alexis, but what have THEY given us?

I'm not trying to blame the players or anything else except one thing. One person and we know who it is. No more excuses for him.

I reckon that over time greater resources will translate into greater success. But what we have seen this season is that this is not necessarily the case season by season, and the fact that we have failed to exploit the underperformance of the big spenders tells you everything you need to know about the real reasons for our lack of success.

[Marc Overmars]

This season is undoubtedly a (relatively speaking) disaster. To the point where even if a miracle happened and we won it, half the fanbase would probably still want him gone.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Whoever is manager after Wenger we risk having the same problem again if they are allowed the same autonomy as Wenger
Wenger is far from being unique in his flaws, the problem is that he is allowed too much responsibility. The next manager must first of all be totally beholden to Ivan Gazidis not the majority shareholder.

They must be part of a large coaching team, they decide who they want to buy but it should be the board not the manager who worries about how much is spent and the resale value, if the manager wants to award a player a new contract it should be a negotiation team working with the board that determines what contract that player is deserving of.

Statistically we know that most of the time it's the money spent rather than who the manager is that determines sucesss.

It's the biggest factor, our frustration with Wenger aside we know full well that Pellegrini has not been instrumental in what city have won. Mourinho is a factor at Chelsea but only because the instability at the club makes success difficult without someone who is a specialist at walking in and delivering instant short term success.

But Arsenal has become Wengers personal fiefdom when he should be a club servant.

[IBK]

Whoever is manager after Wenger we risk having the same problem again if they are allowed the same autonomy as Wenger
Wenger is far from being unique in his flaws, the problem is that he is allowed too much responsibility. The next manager must first of all be totally beholden to Ivan Gazidis not the majority shareholder.

They must be part of a large coaching team, they decide who they want to buy but it should be the board not the manager who worries about how much is spent and the resale value, if the manager wants to award a player a new contract it should be a negotiation team working with the board that determines what contract that player is deserving of.

Statistically we know that most of the time it's the money spent rather than who the manager is that determines sucesss.

It's the biggest factor, our frustration with Wenger aside we know full well that Pellegrini has not been instrumental in what city have won. Mourinho is a factor at Chelsea but only because the instability at the club makes success difficult without someone who is a specialist at walking in and delivering instant short term success.

But Arsenal has become Wengers personal fiefdom when he should be a club servant.

The big problem is going to be the transition from a club where one man seems to dominate in every aspect of the club to one where there are different, and effective functions. I have real doubts that our supine board; disinterested owner and a chief exec who hasn't been able to function autonomously have the wherewithal to manage this.

[Letters]

You're still going to use the money excuse then? Even after this season?

What Leicester and West Ham and even Watford have shown us is if you give an outsider just a tiny bit more of the pie then they can do great things. Well we may not have had as much cash as the chavs and the gypos but we certainly had more of the pie than Leicester City, and for a lot longer than a single season too.

The money excuse is gone. Exposed. Dead.

What has top 4 ever actually done for us, btw? Has the CL been prestigious or embarrassing for us? Yes I know we got the cash, but how much of that was spent at the key moments when we could have really improved? When we were just a little but short? So many transfer windows.

Wenger kept us in the top 4 but consistently failed to do what it takes to go on and at least try to win that competition. A decade ago we made the final with players like Henry and Vieira in the team. Ten years on, what exactly does this Top Four Trophy give us? It has attracted the likes of Ozil and Alexis, but what have THEY given us?

I'm not trying to blame the players or anything else except one thing. One person and we know who it is. No more excuses for him.

So 10+ years where the 3 highest spending clubs have mopped up every title going and a one off season shows that the 10 years were just a fluke? Neither Chelsea or City had won a title for what, 40 years? They start spending a benefactor's money and suddenly they're champions. Co-incidence? Money and success have been highly correlated, I don't need to argue that, look at where the trophies have ended up.

What Leicester are doing this season is inexplicable, and brilliant. I hope they win it. What they're doing shouldn't be possible in the modern game. They've shown it is possible, but that doesn't mean the general point that there is a correlation between spending big and achieving success is invalid. It clearly has been. You and many others have called for Wenger to sign big players. Why? If the 'money excuse' is just that, an excuse, then how will that help?

It's interesting that the same people who are saying that what Leicester are doing shows that the money thing is just an excuse are also saying we should finish above them because we have spent so much more than them . I've no idea how you hold those two thoughts in your head at the same time.

Wenger's record in the CL is indefensible but what it has done for us, apart from the money, is help us attract players like Sanchez and Ozil. I'd rather be in there that not.

[Niall_Quinn]

So 10+ years where the 3 highest spending clubs have mopped up every title going and a one off season shows that the 10 years were just a fluke? Neither Chelsea or City had won a title for what, 40 years? They start spending a benefactor's money and suddenly they're champions. Co-incidence? Money and success have been highly correlated, I don't need to argue that, look at where the trophies have ended up.

What Leicester are doing this season is inexplicable, and brilliant. I hope they win it. What they're doing shouldn't be possible in the modern game. They've shown it is possible, but that doesn't mean the general point that there is a correlation between spending big and achieving success is invalid. It clearly has been. You and many others have called for Wenger to sign big players. Why? If the 'money excuse' is just that, an excuse, then how will that help?

It's interesting that the same people who are saying that what Leicester are doing shows that the money thing is just an excuse are also saying we should finish above them because we have spent so much more than them . I've no idea how you hold those two thoughts in your head at the same time.

Wenger's record in the CL is indefensible but what it has done for us, apart from the money, is help us attract players like Sanchez and Ozil. I'd rather be in there that not.

Who said the money is not important? You did, when putting words in my mouth as always.

I said the money could no longer be used as an excuse for Wenger's abject failure (in football terms). He's supposed to be a top manager. He's got a huge amount of resources, not as much as the dopers that's true but still huge by comparison to a club like Leicester, he's had a stream of talented players come through the club, he's had a decade to deliver. Zero titles, zero Euro cups. Leicester, in the first year where there's a bit more cash (but still a fraction of Wenger's budget) hire the right man to do the right job with the right players and the right mentality. A one-off? Most likely. Inexplicable? Impossible? Hardly. Are we now refusing to believe our own eyes such is the desperate need to defend Wenger failures?

If he's a top manager then why, in every one of those 10 years, has he failed to deliver? 20 opportunities and he's 0 from 20. That's a 0% success rate. He has failed 100% of the time. Isn't this the criteria by which any "top" manager should be judged? Or when judging a manager in light of the evidence available, should we seek out as many excuses as possible when judging his 0% success rate and 100% failure rate?

But even if you wash away the last decade (which is your constant preference), finally this season (for whatever combination of reasons) we can remove money from the equation. The gypos, chavs, utd, all collapsed. Their money meaningless in the context of the league positions. So ignore them, they are gone.

What is left?

A few weeks ago Arsenal was the richest club challenging Leicester (a comparative pauper) and the spuds (a wealthy club but not in Arsenal's class) for the top spot. Arsenal with Ozil and Alexis and Cech and a host of talent that should have been able to mount a serious challenge based on football factors alone - because the money is gone now remember? Or we can say it's gone but in reality and with respect to the 3 clubs in contention now we're the big money club.

What has happened?

Answer. What has always happened under the management of Wenger. We have collapsed. So you take the seasons where the dopers are running away with it, you take the season where the dopers have collapsed. There is a constant. You know what it is.

You object to the word "disaster"? It may not be a disaster for you, but for Wenger it has exposed him completely. If he doesn't view this season as a disaster then that's just another in a long list of reasons to shove him out the door.

[Letters]

If he's a top manager then why, in every one of those 10 years, has he failed to deliver? 20 opportunities and he's 0 from 20. That's a 0% success rate. He has failed 100% of the time. Isn't this the criteria by which any "top" manager should be judged?

And yet, 2 years ago, when we'd just won the FA Cup - which was our first cup in 9 years and you're now dismissing as a 'minor' trophy' - you reacted with "good stuff" when Wenger signed a new contract.
Why? It had still been 8 years of 'failure to deliver'. Why was one 'minor trophy' enough? And the answer was it hadn't been 8 years of abject failure and you knew that.
The money had clearly been a factor and while we should have won more in that period it seemed with the new money that things were on the up, we'd signed Ozil, we'd won the Cup, onwards and upwards.

The most of the rest of your post is about our failure this season which I've already agreed he deserves the sack for. The money is there now, we've been signing a level of player who should push us on, this season in particular the title was an open goal and, fittingly given our strikeforce, we've missed it. Wenger should be sacked for the last 2 years where we haven't pushed on, not for the last 10.