3rd/4th vs A domestic cup double

[LDG]

Prefer the domestic cup double anyday, more fun and exciting plus it actually means success......3rd/4th means sh*t to be honest and we're not winning the CL anytime soon.

This good form is great but it may well lead to Wenger believing little needs changing and we'll find ourselves in the same position next season making up the numbers in the CL.

Sorry but 3rd/4th place is a joke and shouldn't be rewarded with a place in the CL anyway, it makes a mockery of the competition IMO.

I'd prefer to have a chance of winning a trophy than being in with no hope by February personally.

I agree that 3/4th isn't a massive achievement (even though it is a good achievement this year, considering). However, it is massively important.

Regardless of whether we ever win it or not. It's where the money is, and it's an attraction for potential signings, and an incentive for some of our players to stay. So much rides on it, financially and in terms of playing staff.

Maybe that shouldn't be the case. But it is.

This is a weird question for me. It's one that has no real answer. I would sooner be in Arsenal's state than Liverpools, is about as close as I can come to an answer. I don't give a shit if they win two trophies. I'm more interested in us finishing the season well and building on it.

[montyb123]

I think that this is a question that cannot be easily answered. On the one hand, winning two domestic trophies would be great for the fans; I cannot wait to see the current crop of talented Arsenal players finally win some silverware. On the other hand, I do not think that a League Cup and FA Cup double would be enough to convince world-class players to join the club, and it would definitely not help the club financially if we finished outside the top 4. We need to be in the Champions League.

[Flavs]

I would take the cups please. I think its important for this team, in particular the younger members, to know what it feels like to actually win something and regardless of what Arsene says, finishing in the top 4 is not a trophy its just a cash cow.

This is why i am still a bit disgusted with the way we treated the Carling cup final against Birmingham.

[Özim]

I agree that 3/4th isn't a massive achievement (even though it is a good achievement this year, considering). However, it is massively important.

Regardless of whether we ever win it or not. It's where the money is, and it's an attraction for potential signings, and an incentive for some of our players to stay. So much rides on it, financially and in terms of playing staff.

Maybe that shouldn't be the case. But it is.

This is a weird question for me. It's one that has no real answer. I would sooner be in Arsenal's state than Liverpools, is about as close as I can come to an answer. I don't give a shit if they win two trophies. I'm more interested in us finishing the season well and building on it.

I agree with what you're saying, but I'm not convinced we're going to get those signings we need in the summer (Wenger's already said he's not looking for many players), this run of form may also convince that he really doesn't need that much.

Regarding building on the recent run, that would be great, this run does coincide with us basically being out of all competitions and in effect having relatively little pressure on us, most peope had written off first place, we know we can perform when there's no pressure but the problem has always been when we are in with a shout of winning something.

[Letters]

This run of form convinces me he doesn't need to do that much too. We're very close to being a side who can challenge. I think defensively we're getting there, midfield is pretty much there too. We need more firepower up front, someone to help RvP out. Apart from that we're not that far from a side who could seriosuly challenge IMO.

As for the pressure thing, this is more classic goalpost shifting. Before some recent games people were saying we'd crumble, that the pressure was on and we'd fail to take advantage of other teams poor results. Now we've won those games it's "there was relatively little pressure". There's always pressure. This team has showed recently - coming back in 4 games when we went behind - that they're less susceptible to falling apart under pressure than they have been previously. Whether that will translate into trophies in the next few years remains to be seen but right now I'm more hopeful than I've been for a while about Arsenal.

[LDG]

Pretty much.

The job that needs to be done, is a clear out of the dross, and finally see the back of Bender and Denilson etc. Then we have a bit more room to play with.

One quality player in each part of the field is needed I think. CB, CM and Striker.

Ideally I'd like us to sign a marquee type player, just fo rthe fans to get excited, and someone who can win something out of nothing.....but I doubt that will happen.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I agree with what you're saying, but I'm not convinced we're going to get those signings we need in the summer (Wenger's already said he's not looking for many players), this run of form may also convince that he really doesn't need that much.

Regarding building on the recent run, that would be great, this run does coincide with us basically being out of all competitions and in effect having relatively little pressure on us, most peope had written off first place, we know we can perform when there's no pressure but the problem has always been when we are in with a shout of winning something.

Well he don't need many players in fairness we have a core and if he adds Quality to the squad maybe 3/5 players we should be fine next season and challenging, wheather we win a thing is another discussion.

I agree we should be winning trophies but a domestic double is not really success, if liverpool only win the CC id not class that as sucess because they really should be winning so much more.

Its easy to win in a cup final but its much harder to win the league and that is where success should me measured.

Id still love us to finish 4th in honesty bar Barca its hard to see any team winning the CL anyways not just us, so its nice to just play in it.

It would be stupid for us to0 give up on it because we don't have a chance to win it. its like saying Crawley should not bother with the fa and cc cups as they have no chance.

[Özim]

This run of form convinces me he doesn't need to do that much too. We're very close to being a side who can challenge. I think defensively we're getting there, midfield is pretty much there too. We need more firepower up front, someone to help RvP out. Apart from that we're not that far from a side who could seriosuly challenge IMO.

As for the pressure thing, this is more classic goalpost shifting. Before some recent games people were saying we'd crumble, that the pressure was on and we'd fail to take advantage of other teams poor results. Now we've won those games it's "there was relatively little pressure". There's always pressure. This team has showed recently - coming back in 4 games when we went behind - that they're less susceptible to falling apart under pressure than they have been previously. Whether that will translate into trophies in the next few years remains to be seen but right now I'm more hopeful than I've been for a while about Arsenal.

What about the rest of the season and all the horrendous results, are those to jus tbe ignored and forgotten then?

Things don't just change overnight, we've proven time after time that when we're in the hunt we haven't got the bottle. The pressure thing is very relevant, when you've got not trophies on the line the pressure is much less that's a fact, in many ways the pressure was off us with regards getting 4th, the teams above us were seen as better and were seemingly out of sight.

I'm just not convinced that a few good wins at the end of the season proves anything, our achilles heel has always been our ability to cope with the pressure of winning a trophy, nothing we've done this season points to anything different.

The defence is still suspect IMO, they might not be conceding that many however there's times we've still be horribly exposed. Up front we know we're short, we also definitely lack a star player or two.

The worrying thing is Wenger also has a short memory and I can see him doing very little in the summer leading to the same problems resurfacing next season, it's like we never learn.

[Letters]

What about the rest of the season and all the horrendous results, are those to jus tbe ignored and forgotten then?

Not forgotten, no. But we can't do anything about what's gone. I read a stat the other day (I know how you love stats) which said that since October 3rd we've picked up the same number of points as ManYoo. (That was before their game last night, they've picked up 3 more points now. We have picked up the same number of points as Man City over that period though). The point is since our car crash of a start we've actually done pretty well in the league. That isn't a 'few good wins at the end of a season', it's over more than 20 games and 6 months. I think that's a significant enough period to show we're moving in the right direction.

You move the goalposts about 'pressure'. People on here were saying we would crumble in recent games, fail to take advantage of Spurs' poor run of results. Had we dropped points people would have been posting saying we didn't cope with the pressure. But we haven't, we've kept winning. So now the 'pressure was off'. Nonsense. Top 4 should not be the limit of our ambitions but it's clearly the level we expect to be at and there is pressure to deliver it, that pressure increases as the games run out and when other clubs above us drop points there's pressure on us to take advantage. So far we have. Chelsea and Spurs drew on Saturday before our game. Was there not pressure on us to win?

Things don't change overnight but we're not talking overnight, a season is over 9 months and there has been a clear change in the way the team have played over that period. Not just in results, they seem to be playing more as a team and working harder. Was talking to a friend who was there on Saturday and he mentioned Gervinho tracking back 60 yards to make a tackle. In the Newcastle game Vermaelan ran 70 yards in the 95th minute to score the late winner. Things like that show something about this team right now which has been lacking in past seasons.

I can only judge our defence by what I've seen of late and they do look more solid. There are still worrying moments - IMO we show-boated too much in the 2nd half on Saturday and there were some self destructive moments where we could have let Villa back in. Overall though from what I've seen recently I trust this lot far more with a slender lead than I have some Arsenal sides over the last few years. We deal with set pieces better overall and we have a proper 'keeper who commands the defence well.

Again, I don't think Wenger needs to do much in the summer. We need more depth, particularly up front. We need to get rid of some dead wood. We're not far away from being a side who can seriously challenge though.

I remember you posting near the start of the season to say there's no comparison between our squad and Spurs'. You seemed to think they were better than us in every department. Well here we are, above them again. Maybe we won't sustain it but we've done very well to make up the ground and it shows there's not as much between the squads as you thought. I don't think Wenger needs to do that much in the summer but he DOES need to do something and he needs to do it early, not be scrambling around on deadline day again. The Podolski rumours encourage me that we will do it right this summer but we'll see.

[Syn]

1) Arsenal don't care about winning trophies, they only care about 4th place and getting money from CL football.
2) When 13 points behind the spuds and 7th position with a tough run of games (Sunderland A, Tottenham H, Liverpool A, Newcastle H, Everton A, Villa H), the pressure was off.

It doesn't add up.

I reckon the mentality, effort-levels etc. is fine. But lacking the genuine quality to truly compete on all fronts. You might say we've overachieved in the league with the resources we have. It has taken shit like junkie Rosicky suddenly turning in some great form and establishing himself as a regular starter and Theo learning how to play football. Slightly optimistic about next year because I like the look of some of our youngsters (non peeeeeeeeedo).