Is Wenger stale or is it us?

[IBK]

Kind off, the problem is that we adopted this business model of buying in promising kids on non-poachable monies the idea then being they would win us stuff or we could sell them for silly monies like Fabregas, Anelka and so on.

This hasn't worked and we have now ended up with some utter pap being made big money and no-one is willing to buy them because ...they are on big wages. Well Jo whaddayouknow.

Not really wanting to defend Wenger but i would point out that at 17/18 its really hard to gauge who between Denilson and Song was going to be the better star is going to be. Likewise Ade and Bendtner.

Sadly we cant have it both ways. If it was me? I would give them all free transfers just to shift them off the wage bill.

Insightful porst.

[Kano]

Yeah it's funny how 3 premiership titles, 4 FA cups and the greatest team this country has seen in recent times will do that

well of course but it doesn't distract from the point does it?

don't get my point misconstrued as some sort of veiled attack on wenger. you suggested he is associated with far more aspects of the club than anyone else and that is because of the respect afforded to him and his strong ideas on how to run a club.

[Kano]

OK so the consensus appears to be that Wenger has gone stale for the following reasons.

1. No silverware for 7 years.

As someone has observed, if we'd won a couple of league titles in the interim, we'd be blissfully happy with Wenger. But is our lack of silverware really because AW has gone stale - or is it really because he's been hampered by the stadium project while confronted by the almost unlimited resources of other clubs?

I'd agree that had we shown more committment to the FA/Carling Cups we might have something to show for it. But Wenger would say that his principal focus is finishing high enough up the league to get CL football. Do people really value cup silverware above Tues/Weds night football?

2. Failing to use his available resources wisely.

Again, I'd agree that we seem to pay too much money to under-performing players - while our inability to pay our best players more creates a continual talent drain. AW appears to place too much faith in certain players who don't reward it.

But on analysis is this going stale? My difficulty with this over-rewarding criticism is that noone - least of all Wenger - will pay more than they have to for players - either in transfer fees or in wages. The reason why Bendtner; Diaby; Denilson; Vela; Ramsey are paid what they are paid is that there was demand for them when they signed. You might even argue that because we've slipped from the top, we need to make it more attractive for players to join our club.

Wenger's talent has always been on the developmental side. Is it fair to criticise him for choosing to continue with this - especially at a time when its become simply impossible to compete using the alternative model?

And anyway - doesn't the manager's change in direction in the transfer market last Summer indicate a fresh approach rather than a stale one?

And anyway - doesn't the manager's change in direction in the transfer market last Summer indicate a fresh approach rather than a stale one?

It indicates a new buying approach but reinvigorating yourself and shaking off the cobwebs takes more than one change in direction. The most telling factor is how the team perform and whether or not there is a marked changed in how the team react to his leadership on the field – and sadly, once again last season, the same old limp ending oh so nearly cost us dearly.

[Flavs]

well of course but it doesn't distract from the point does it?

don't get my point misconstrued as some sort of veiled attack on wenger. you suggested he is associated with far more aspects of the club than anyone else and that is because of the respect afforded to him and his strong ideas on how to run a club.

It wasnt so much a reference to yourself my friend as to the muppets who think Wenger has never done fuck all and is too blame for all the issues at the club.

He is overly involved of course but that's the boards call and is based upon how successful he has been, people use this as a stick to beat him with but contrary to popular belief our board aren't morons they see a golden ticket when they get one. It's just easier to continue the way we are than rip it up and start again now.

[IBK]

And anyway - doesn't the manager's change in direction in the transfer market last Summer indicate a fresh approach rather than a stale one?

It indicates a new buying approach but reinvigorating yourself and shaking off the cobwebs takes more than one change in direction. The most telling factor is how the team perform and whether or not there is a marked changed in how the team react to his leadership on the field – and sadly, once again last season, the same old limp ending oh so nearly cost us dearly.

Not sure I'd agree with you there. I think there was a marked change in attitude/resiliance last season. After our horrendous start, we did well to haul ourselves back into the mix - and we showed more heart and togetherness as a team.

Liverpool toiled, and Spurs had an Arsenal-like implosion. We were different.

Now there's no doubt that mediocrity seems to be tolerated by our manager more than others, and that in the past, the team has lacked the mental strength to perform consistently. But I wonder whether both these attributes are down to over-committment to developmental players rather than some fundamental training flaw emanating from the manager. After all, going a whole season unbeaten takes mental strength and fortitude, and we had the same manager then.

[Flavs]

I always think we struggle as we don't really have a comparable team in the prem. Not frame of reference always means its hard to draw conclusions.

[Kano]

Not sure I'd agree with you there. I think there was a marked change in attitude/resiliance last season. After our horrendous start, we did well to haul ourselves back into the mix - and we showed more heart and togetherness as a team.

Liverpool toiled, and Spurs had an Arsenal-like implosion. We were different.

Now there's no doubt that mediocrity seems to be tolerated by our manager more than others, and that in the past, the team has lacked the mental strength to perform consistently. But I wonder whether both these attributes are down to over-committment to developmental players rather than some fundamental training flaw emanating from the manager. After all, going a whole season unbeaten takes mental strength and fortitude, and we had the same manager then.

he didn't create that mental strength in that team, i would put that down more to buying the right players with that.

our mental strength improved last season but it is still nowhere near enough to do something serious with it - we fell into 3rd last season, rather than taking control.

[IBK]

he didn't create that mental strength in that team, i would put that down more to buying the right players with that.

our mental strength improved last season but it is still nowhere near enough to do something serious with it - we fell into 3rd last season, rather than taking control.

Again, I think that is an overly critical approach.

Its not fair to imply that the Invincibles' season was down to the individual players rather than AW, but that he's responsible for the team's demise since. Yes, there was more experience and leadership within the Invincibles team, but for the past few years, I think the manager has faced a Catch 22 situation. He has been forced, first through the stadium project and then through the change of footballing landscape, to try to compete by trying a developmental approach - and has tried to build a team using exceptional young talent/homegrown players rather than good, but unexceptional seasoned players. Exceptional experience is now out of our financial league.

The problem with young talent - particularly to the degree that AW has relied upon it - is that it lacks the experience and often the resiliance to compete with those teams who can afford the best tried and tested players. We can blame Wenger for risking too much on youth, for sure - but IMO its over-simplifying it to criticise him for the inevitable issues that come with inexperience - as though there was an obvious alternative way for him to achieve success. Yes, he could have bought more Arteta or Benayoun-type players - but this level of player is not sufficient to compete with Citeh and the Chavs. The Koscielny's; Oxlade's; Szezesny's; Wishere's of this world are talented enough to compete - but cannot be relied upon consistently in terms of experience or mental strength while they are developing. On the other hand, once they have made the transition they become exceptional players for us.

I'm not sure that not getting the balance quite right over the past few years is down to Wenger getting stale. Its a very difficult thing to do - and the manager is up against teams with infinitely deeper pockets than we are.

Lastly, I don't really think its fair to point to how close we were to finishing 4th last season as a criticism of the team's mental strength. It was the opposite, really. We started off very badly and clawed our way up to 4th, rather than starting off well and fading towards the end like Spurs and Newcastle did. That is the sign of mental strength, IMO.

If you follow your line of argument than Citeh should be criticised because they were a hair's breadth away from finishing second.

[Kano]

fair enough. i take your points however i do still disagree and this is an age old argument that i have little heart to really delve into.

[Power n Glory]

he didn't create that mental strength in that team, i would put that down more to buying the right players with that.

our mental strength improved last season but it is still nowhere near enough to do something serious with it - we fell into 3rd last season, rather than taking control.

I'd agree with that point. We hit rock bottom after the Man United result but it was the final day of the transfer window that lifted us. I heard experienced players like Merts, Arteta and Yossi were influential on the dressing room and showed leadership.

What annoys me about this fact is that we see it all the time. We know that buying new players lifts the teams spirits and adds that extra layer of depth to our team but when we're going for glory we never ever buy. It's only when there is a crisis. If we didn't get smashed to Man Utd, we wouldn't have bought so many players.