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Thread: Was Man United a watershed?

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    Member IBK's Avatar
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    Was Man United a watershed?

    I've seen it said that Saturday's 2-1 defeat was as bad as last year's 8-2, and while this stretches a point I can see the argument. Last year we caught them when we were in turmoil, transfer wise, and they were irrepressible. This year we were utterley dominated by a Manure team who barely got out of second gear. So 14 months on, and this time with transfer business concluded a long time ago, did this game underline in a revealing way why our manager's time is up?

    Team selection? Clueless; incompetent and stubborn. Perservering with Santos at LB and Ramsey at RM was folly, and everyone in football apart from Wenger could see it. Arguably, even the selection of Vermaelen, who is woefully out of form, incapable of providing leadership, and gifting a goal a game these days was a mistake. Not to mention his failure to start Walcott, or to consider Oxlade Chamberlain. Wenger has always stated that he does not consider the opposition when setting up his team. It would seem now that he isn't able objectively to consider the performance of his own team.

    Player positioning? Podolski on the left is clearly not working. Giroud up front with no service is pointless. Arteta at DM is too easy to mark out of the game. Theo - the best finisher we have, but Wenger would rather play Gervinho up front than Theo. We are a much better team on paper than we are on the pitch - and this team is increasingly looking like Wenger's vanity project more than anything else. It doesn't matter that he is bringling in more seasoned, experienced players. The advantage is being lost, because the manager simply refuses to play to their strengths. Saturday was a prime example of several players looking like they were playing a game utterly unnatural to them.

    Team set up. This is a team and formation that can only be explained by the idea that it is set up around having a Diaby in MF. Wake up Wenger. We will never have a Diaby in MF for more than the odd game. Our style of football increasingly seems not to have really evolved since the Fabregas project. Only now, we have inferior players to play it. Wenger's brand of foolball looks not only stale - but almost as though it is the easiest type of football to play against - both in attack and in defence. All the opposition needs to do is to wait for the inevitable mistake. Norwich found it easly; Reading first half midweek...followed by a Manure team that looked almost bored by the lack of challenge on Saturday. Very difficult not to conclude that Wenger has run out of ideas and direction.

    Motivation. Ferguson described this fixture pre-match as a 'hard-ish' game. I mean that comment alone would have been all the motivation that any team in the league needed to put in a display. Arsenal looked like they didn't care. Not about the veiled insult. Not about the fact that they looked a division lower than our old arch rivals, and even about making life difficult for Manure - still less about winning the game. Instead, we see that buffoon Santos swapping shirts with the captain that turned his back on us and who had scored against us for Manure, at half time. Second half against Reading aside, we look like a broken team. No belief, no spirit, no drive, no fight. It is the manager who is responsible for this. Rio Ferdinand spoke about how Ferguson buys personalities as well as players. Wenger represses personality - all he wants is characterless drones who do exactly what he wants them to do because his ego can't stand a challenge. So there is nothing shown on the pitch, and Wenger has clearly lost the ability to inspire off it. If he cannot get himself and his team up to play his oldest rival, in a fixture that resulted in such total humiliation last year than I would say that the writing is on the wall.

    Regard for the club. Lets get this straight. I think the manager loves the club. But I think that we now need to ask what does this mean. I think that Wenger loves the club in the same way that you might love a faithful Labrador. A pet that exists to do his bidding. Re the team selection and other issues above, I think it is becoming unacceptable that the manager demonstrates such arrogance in perservering with policies, choices and risks that are almost doomed to fail - when the reality is that half of his tenure has now been trophyless.


    This might be a bit of a ramble, and I know that all of the points made have been made before, but to see where we have come to against Wenger's oldest and fiercest rival, having been given a year to show that he has moved on since the nadir of last year seems like a watershed to me. I have always wanted to be convinced that Wenger still has it, but finally now I accept that there is no bounce back. I think the sooner his tenure ends now, the better.
    Last edited by IBK; 05-11-2012 at 11:21 AM.
    Putting the laughter back into manslaughter

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    Pat Rice LDG's Avatar
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    It was a waterbungalow. And if the problem isn't arrested, it will become a waterblock of flats by the end of the season.

    The man is a lunatic.
    It's better to burn out, than to fade away.

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    MOe Marc Overmars's Avatar
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    Good read.

    I think we all understand the financial climate in football that has handicapped us, but the real problems for us lie on the pitch and Wenger's inability to keep his team fresh and up for the challenge. Lesser teams than us have given United a run for their money this season and will continue to do so, there are just no excuses for these stale and lifeless performances we're churning out.

    It's not Gazidis who thinks Ramsey can operate as a winger that's for sure.

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    MOe Marc Overmars's Avatar
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    Also, the complete lack of urgency is summed up by players never busting a gut to get in the penalty box to follow in crosses and anticipate rebounds. Pires and Freddie did that in their sleep, yet not one player is prepared to do it now, probably because they've all been told to hold their positions with this bogus style of play.

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    They/Them GP's Avatar
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    I don't really understand our style of play at the moment.

    Technically, the squad is very good, I just don't understand why they aren't able to create anything.

    With a decent service, Giroud is easily a 30-goal striker.

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    Pat Rice LDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimandi's Perm View Post
    I don't really understand our style of play at the moment.

    Technically, the squad is very good, I just don't understand why they aren't able to create anything.

    With a decent service, Giroud is easily a 30-goal striker.
    Because the loony is either too stubborn, or too far gone to change things up when we're not performing.

    i) Before the match, in order to play the best team

    and

    ii) During the match to change something that ain't working

    I am not a football manager at all. But I could see Rooney was marking Arteta out of the game. It was simple shit from Fergie. He just took out pivot out of the game, and it meant we couldn't control the midfield past the half way line.

    It's basic stuff. Just like defending is basic stuff, but Wenger absolutely refuses to sort these fundmental issues out, and chucks his belief, 100% in a failed idea.

    Lunatic.
    It's better to burn out, than to fade away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ice Berg Kamping View Post
    I've seen it said that Saturday's 2-1 defeat was as bad as last year's 8-2, and while this stretches a point I can see the argument. Last year we caught them when we were in turmoil, transfer wise, and they were irrepressible. This year we were utterley dominated by a Manure team who barely got out of second gear. So 14 months on, and this time with transfer business concluded a long time ago, did this game underline in a revealing way why our manager's time is up?

    Team selection? Clueless; incompetent and stubborn. Perservering with Santos at LB and Ramsey at RM was folly, and everyone in football apart from Wenger could see it. Arguably, even the selection of Vermaelen, who is woefully out of form, incapable of providing leadership, and gifting a goal a game these days was a mistake. Not to mention his failure to start Walcott, or to consider Oxlade Chamberlain. Wenger has always stated that he does not consider the opposition when setting up his team. It would seem now that he isn't able objectively to consider the performance of his own team.

    Player positioning? Podolski on the left is clearly not working. Giroud up front with no service is pointless. Arteta at DM is too easy to mark out of the game. Theo - the best finisher we have, but Wenger would rather play Gervinho up front than Theo. We are a much better team on paper than we are on the pitch - and this team is increasingly looking like Wenger's vanity project more than anything else. It doesn't matter that he is bringling in more seasoned, experienced players. The advantage is being lost, because the manager simply refuses to play to their strengths. Saturday was a prime example of several players looking like they were playing a game utterly unnatural to them.

    Team set up. This is a team and formation that can only be explained by the idea that it is set up around having a Diaby in MF. Wake up Wenger. We will never have a Diaby in MF for more than the odd game. Our style of football increasingly seems not to have really evolved since the Fabregas project. Only now, we have inferior players to play it. Wenger's brand of foolball looks not only stale - but almost as though it is the easiest type of football to play against - both in attack and in defence. All the opposition needs to do is to wait for the inevitable mistake. Norwich found it easly; Reading first half midweek...followed by a Manure team that looked almost bored by the lack of challenge on Saturday. Very difficult not to conclude that Wenger has run out of ideas and direction.

    Motivation. Ferguson described this fixture pre-match as a 'hard-ish' game. I mean that comment alone would have been all the motivation that any team in the league needed to put in a display. Arsenal looked like they didn't care. Not about the veiled insult. Not about the fact that they looked a division lower than our old arch rivals, and even about making life difficult for Manure - still less about winning the game. Instead, we see that buffoon Santos swapping shirts with the captain that turned his back on us and who had scored against us for Manure, at half time. Second half against Reading aside, we look like a broken team. No belief, no spirit, no drive, no fight. It is the manager who is responsible for this. Rio Ferdinand spoke about how Ferguson buys personalities as well as players. Wenger represses personality - all he wants is characterless drones who do exactly what he wants them to do because his ego can't stand a challenge. So there is nothing shown on the pitch, and Wenger has clearly lost the ability to inspire off it. If he cannot get himself and his team up to play his oldest rival, in a fixture that resulted in such total humiliation last year than I would say that the writing is on the wall.

    Regard for the club. Lets get this straight. I think the manager loves the club. But I think that we now need to ask what does this mean. I think that Wenger loves the club in the same way that you might love a faithful Labrador. A pet that exists to do his bidding. Re the team selection and other issues above, I think it is becoming unacceptable that the manager demonstrates such arrogance in perservering with policies, choices and risks that are almost doomed to fail - when the reality is that half of his tenure has now been trophyless.


    This might be a bit of a ramble, and I know that all of the points made have been made before, but to see where we have come to against Wenger's oldest and fiercest rival, having been given a year to show that he has moved on since the nadir of last year seems like a watershed to me. I have always wanted to be convinced that Wenger still has it, but finally now I accept that there is no bounce back. I think the sooner his tenure ends now, the better.

  8. #8
    Member Kano's Avatar
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    time for Bielsa or Klopp please

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    Agree with that, questions have to be asked about Wenger's decision making in terms of team selection, tactics, motivation etc. I don't think we can say he's a good manager anymore.

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    Was reading Arseblog and this part struck me.

    As expected Arsene spoke about his decision to leave Jack Wilshere on, citing lack of options for the reason:

    "We were in a position where we had to attack and I had no offensive central midfielders on the bench as well".

    Which I understood yesterday, especially when we are light in midfield. But, having thought about it, couldn’t he have put on Coquelin in the more defensive role and moved Arteta forward? The Spaniard was shackled by Rooney most of the game, I’m sure Coquelin could have got stuck in there and allowed Arteta to move into an area of the pitch he’s more than comfortable in.

    Sometimes Wenger’s rigidity is confusing. On the one hand he seems tactically inflexible and unwilling to make changes when it’s obvious things aren’t working, on the other he’ll play Gervinho at centre-forward, Ramsey on the right of a front three, last season Benayoun in a similar way. I’ve seen calls for changes in formation, a return to 4-4-2, perhaps, something which seemed to serve us well against Reading.
    As LDG said also, we could see Arteta was getting marked out of the game but he did nothing for entire match. I don't particularly rate Arteta as a DM because he's not mobile enough or comfortable enough to drop deep, turn and pass the ball off quickly to mount an attack. He's not strong enough to hold his man off either. I've always rated Song for being able to do this with ease when playing as a DM and it really helped players like Cesc to just roam forward and find space. Fergie was in the stands and looked at where to target and he made sure all the attacks came down Santos' side and stuck Rooney on Arteta and kept a tight leash on Cazorla.

    Wenger has lost it. He's stale, stubborn and we can all see it. Now the question is, how can things change? He won't listen to his players. People may disagree with RVP telling Wenger who to sign, but the captain should be able to speak to his coach about these things especially if you are asking him to commit his final years to this club. Henry did it as well. Wenger probably lied to him during the first contract talks and promised he'd bring in quality signings and when that didn't happen, Henry was pissed and went to the press as our season started to unravel again. So what are the options if he won't listen to his players, ex players, critics and pundits and seems blind to the results we see week in week out?

    A boycott of games would be fantastic but failing that, the fans just need to kick up a right stink at the Emirates so the message is loud and clear. It seems like the only way now.

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