Was Man United a watershed?

[Özim]

man marking still concedes goals and no-one criticises that. it's no magic fix.

have all the systems you want in place but if players switch, as ours regularly do, it won't make a difference.

With total buffoons at the back zonal marking will never work, for it to work you need intelligent players who can react and work together.

At least with man marking they have one person they can see to follow around, although sometimes you wonder whether that would be too much for them as well, Wenger will probably put the smallest player in our team against the tallest in the oppositions.

[Kano]

sure, ok.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

With total buffoons at the back zonal marking will never work, for it to work you need intelligent players who can react and work together.

At least with man marking they have one person they can see to follow around, although sometimes you wonder whether that would be too much for them as well, Wenger will probably put the smallest player in our team against the tallest in the oppositions.

Problem is with our fullbacks and Captain always bombing forward for some reason, their minds will never be on marking, unless you mean from set pieces.

[IBK]

Excellent post Sub. Like many others I'm starting to feel numb about this season, we've had a really poor start and our latest slump has really brought home what this team is or isn't about.

For all my cries of "Wenger" out and I've wanted him out for a good few seasons now I do believe that putting aside the financial debate, Wenger really isn't a great tactical manager, I would go as far as to say he's not even one of the best managers out there now, there are a few in Europe and domestically who I comfortably rate above him as a Football Manager. Wenger is too inflexible and rigid in his approach to the get the best out of this team and it's to the detriment of the team.

Wenger is like a relic, a piece of history. In Football terms he's only reveered for what he has done, not what he is currently doing.

We here these arguments regularly "Arsenal fans are mad for wanting Wenger out, look at what he has DONE for the club", done being the key word here.

Thanks. For me, there have of course been concerns with the manager for a while. However, I have defended him against the vastly superior spending power of the top 3, backed him when he has got rid of want away players that I think the club has been generally powerless to keep, and been prepared to see what he can do with a new policy of purchasing established stars rather than youngsters.

But it has become clear to me that he has lost the insight into the game, and particularly the objectivity as to the effectiveness of his methods, that he once had. Lets face it, Wenger has never been a tactician. He has relied on his vision as to how the game should be played, his willingness to give players the freedom to express themselves on the pitch, and a sharp eye for talent. All three are now being shown up.

His vision as to how the game should be played is both out of step with the talent at his disposal, and ill suited for the English game, where counter attacking is king. We are a dream for any counter-attacking team to play - whether it is those teams such as Manure and Citeh, and lately Chelsea who do so by design, or those teams (the majority of the bottom half of the league) who primarily want to defend and then nick a sucker punch while they can. Yet Wenger cannot see this. His obsession with possession play leaves us far too high up the pitch and without fluidity and movement in the final third. There is no consistent end product, and finding the available openings requires his MF's to be on the level of Cazorla, and his strikers to be on the level of RVP. The manager does not seem to realise that the vast majority of his attacking players are either not being played to their strengths, or are simply not good enough. And the overall quality falls year on year.

Hand in hand with this is the scant attention he places on, or his inability to equip his players to play the opposition. It might be fine to ask a Henry; Vieira; Pires; Ljungberg; Nasri; Fabregas or Van Persie to express yourselves. They all had the quality to read the game and to do so. Carzorla and Arshavin aside (and Wenger has killed the latter) none of our current crop can thrive in this environment. It almost seems ridiculous that you should not try to make it as easy as possible for your players by telling them what to do; playing them where they are most effective, and exposing the weaknesses of the opposition. The lowliest Championship manager will try to do this, and the likes of SAF do there straightforward things very well. Without the talent and the independence of thought that is needed on the pitch for Wenger's approach to work, he might as well be sending his players out with their arms tied behind their backs.

Increasingly, it seems that Wenger is setting up his sides based upon some kind of a computer program. With substitutions that are pre-planned rather than reactive. He seems increasiingly clueless tactically - so its no surprise that his players look clueless on the pitch.

Then we look at his eye for talent. I do not want to be revisionist, and clearly Wenger has unearthed some real talent over the years, but since the youth project his ability appears to be diminishing. I put this down to 2 things. First he seems to be motivated by an obsession to find something different in players even where they are tried and tested - hence either he plays them out of position or he assumes that they will work in his system, when they are not suited to do so. Again, it seems almost as though there is a blueprint that every player has to confirm to. Secondly, he seems obsessed with showing the world that he can unearth hidden talent. But for every Jenkinson, we have a Santos; a Chamakh; a Denilson; a Ramsey...

And the biggest problem for us is that AW is too arrogant to accept assistance; too myopic to see his mistakes, and too set in his ways to change them.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Thanks. For me, there have of course been concerns with the manager for a while. However, I have defended him against the vastly superior spending power of the top 3, backed him when he has got rid of want away players that I think the club has been generally powerless to keep, and been prepared to see what he can do with a new policy of purchasing established stars rather than youngsters.

But it has become clear to me that he has lost the insight into the game, and particularly the objectivity as to the effectiveness of his methods, that he once had. Lets face it, Wenger has never been a tactician. He has relied on his vision as to how the game should be played, his willingness to give players the freedom to express themselves on the pitch, and a sharp eye for talent. All three are now being shown up.

His vision as to how the game should be played is both out of step with the talent at his disposal, and ill suited for the English game, where counter attacking is king. We are a dream for any counter-attacking team to play - whether it is those teams such as Manure and Citeh, and lately Chelsea who do so by design, or those teams (the majority of the bottom half of the league) who primarily want to defend and then nick a sucker punch while they can. Yet Wenger cannot see this. His obsession with possession play leaves us far too high up the pitch and without fluidity and movement in the final third. There is no consistent end product, and finding the available openings requires his MF's to be on the level of Cazorla, and his strikers to be on the level of RVP. The manager does not seem to realise that the vast majority of his attacking players are either not being played to their strengths, or are simply not good enough. And the overall quality falls year on year.

Hand in hand with this is the scant attention he places on, or his inability to equip his players to play the opposition. It might be fine to ask a Henry; Vieira; Pires; Ljungberg; Nasri; Fabregas or Van Persie to express yourselves. They all had the quality to read the game and to do so. Carzorla and Arshavin aside (and Wenger has killed the latter) none of our current crop can thrive in this environment. It almost seems ridiculous that you should not try to make it as easy as possible for your players by telling them what to do; playing them where they are most effective, and exposing the weaknesses of the opposition. The lowliest Championship manager will try to do this, and the likes of SAF do there straightforward things very well. Without the talent and the independence of thought that is needed on the pitch for Wenger's approach to work, he might as well be sending his players out with their arms tied behind their backs.

Increasingly, it seems that Wenger is setting up his sides based upon some kind of a computer program. With substitutions that are pre-planned rather than reactive. He seems increasiingly clueless tactically - so its no surprise that his players look clueless on the pitch.

Then we look at his eye for talent. I do not want to be revisionist, and clearly Wenger has unearthed some real talent over the years, but since the youth project his ability appears to be diminishing. I put this down to 2 things. First he seems to be motivated by an obsession to find something different in players even where they are tried and tested - hence either he plays them out of position or he assumes that they will work in his system, when they are not suited to do so. Again, it seems almost as though there is a blueprint that every player has to confirm to. Secondly, he seems obsessed with showing the world that he can unearth hidden talent. But for every Jenkinson, we have a Santos; a Chamakh; a Denilson; a Ramsey...

And the biggest problem for us is that AW is too arrogant to accept assistance; to myopic to see his mistakes, and to set in his ways to change them.

You can tell he is cracking up too, The Utd game, where he had that rant, showed the pressure is getting to him.

And the biggest problem for us is that AW is too arrogant to accept assistance; to myopic to see his mistakes, and to set in his ways to change them

And whats funny about this, is he is hurting himself, putting more pressure on himself, if he is not careful he could end up really ill.

[Niall_Quinn]

Increasingly, it seems that Wenger is setting up his sides based upon some kind of a computer program. With substitutions that are pre-planned rather than reactive. He seems increasiingly clueless tactically - so its no surprise that his players look clueless on the pitch.

That's the only explanation. We play percentages based on statistical analysis of each individual and (I'd guess) in total isolation of corresponding analysis of the other team. If we can be 66.38 efficient over 51.27 games then our final league position will be 3.84, or rounded to 4th place trophy spot. This is the only explanation that fits the evidence. GPS vests, carefully regimented substitutions, playing out of position perhaps but maybe he's looking at distance covered in total, distance covered over the first second, average interceptions, some set of stats that should theoretically give us an edge but don't hold up on a chaotic football pitch. Or maybe they do, 15 seasons in the CL says they might. But how frustrating when we end up throwing away 5.92 games to inferior opposition who we could have beaten easily with just a touch of ingenuity (or even common sense).

This is like setting up a metronome beside the bed before you have a fuck and then counting down to pre-planned orgasm regardless of what the bird is up to. She could have headed off and made coffee for all you care because it's the counting that's important. Timing that cum shot just right. You're the world's greatest lover because the stats don't lie.

[LDG]

[Letters]

We've not been very good recently but I think it's a little early to pull the trigger just yet.

We've had 10 games so far in the league, 6 away and 4 at home. Two of the away games have been the two Manchester clubs, the one we lost at home was Chelsea. We've only got one point from those 3 games but I think most on here accept they're all better sides than us. A point away at City was a good result, it's more than most teams will get this year. I didn't see the Chelsea game for various reasons but understand we were pretty unlucky to lose. Yesterday we were poor though and we've not looked good recently. The gap yesterday was depressing but early season we looked pretty decent. I'm not sure where it's gone wrong but we didn't look like such a bad side.

If we can recapture that form then we'll finish 4th comfortably, if not then it'll be a struggle but the other candidates for 4th are all looking pretty poor too so it's there for the taking for whoever gets their act together.

We've got 2 home games next, Fulham and Spurs. Both sides who are close to us in the table.
Win those and we'll be fairly comfortably 4th and things will feel better.

The lack of creativity is worrying me at the moment. The defensive problems are being over-stated (although Santos is bloody awful, the rest are OK IMO). The bigger problem right now is creating chances and scoring them.

[Gervinho's Forehead]

letters

[LDG]

The lack of creativity is worrying me at the moment. The defensive problems are being over-stated (although Santos is bloody awful, the rest are OK IMO). The bigger problem right now is creating chances and scoring them.

Well, clearly that is a worry....but shouldn't we be concerned with the whole thing?

Yet another individual error cost is the first goal. I'm sorry, but if your captain isn't switched on, two minutes into the game, agains the best striker in the league, it doesn't bode well for the rest of the game.

This is about us being utter turd all over the pitch at the moment. I can't think of one player who has played well just recently.

Actually, I can. Jenkinson. And he was dropped.