Wenger Out ?

[Niall_Quinn]

The suggestion is we all calm down and stop trying to hound our manager out of his job when we still have a season to complete, a vital CL spot to secure and a cup semi to play in. After that many things might happen but in the main I suppose we all want to get something positive from the run in so it would be better to get behind even a misfiring team because there's more chance of a result that way. The media and the opposition fans will do their worst anyway, media hacks and football fans like nothing better than do kick hard when somebody is down (we do it with Moyes). It's counter-productive and hurts ourselves when we join in with that shit against our own team though. And these "pro-Wengerites" will only stand more staunchly behind the manager if people inside our own camp start lobbing bricks at him. What else is expected?

Honestly, there are people hoping we miss out on the CL, people hoping we get crushed by the gypos, people posting up as much shit about Wenger as they can on our own message boards, fucks on twatter screaming abuse at the guy while having the nerve to pin an Arsenal badge to their name. That shit has to stop. Don't you think?

[Özim]

First up, the jury isn't out on Kroenke and whether his end game is to the maximum benefit of the club. The release of proper funds for a major signing was a good indicator though. I stand fully behind what I said about those who put little in and took the maximum at a time when finances were crucial. Unbelievably some are accusing Wenger of this and never a mention of the ones who pocketed ten thousand times their meagre investment. It was never about instant gratification, it was about the possibility of having the future taken away (remember the boardroom stabbings?) and the patience you mention being exchanged for a confidence trick rather than the real prize - which is the financial muscle to compete at the top of the game. The competing can't come before that, at least not on a consistent basis. One step follows the next and if the first indications are a prelude to delivering the remainder of what was promised when this project began then it's pure insanity to kick it all in at the death. For sure, it's still a risk but we're watching the big deals getting landed. We've all done the, "Are we there yet?", routine but now the answer is finally yes and we're pulling onto the driveway some stupid fuckers want to wrestle the wheel from the driver and crash the fucking car. I think it is because they have forgotten (or never knew) why they were on the journey in the first place and now they just hate the driver.

True enough, even with bolstered finances we can't dominate the criminals unless we bring our own criminal in (which I hope we don't because then everything really will have been for nothing), but we are in the game at least. We can spend as much as teams like Utd (marketing giants) and Liverpool (short termism with their finances), we can start replacing lost talent rather than selling it. We all know we are short of players in the squad and there's a blatantly obvious reason for it and that reason is about to expire. The sentient arguments about Wenger struggling as a coach (certainly not as a manager because he's proved his worth in that discipline over and over again) I understand. It could well be Wenger moves up and a more training ground focused coach with a tighter remit is brought in. That could happen. But the hatred and ridicule has gone way beyond such reasonable debates.

This guy hasn't stolen anything from the club, he's poured everything he can give into it. But we haven't managed to overcome the billionaires yet and we are still prone to the effects of underinvestment (the opportunity cost of investment elsewhere) when a few players hit the treatment table. And that's disappointing and frustrating. And it's pointed out by the "pro-Wengerites" (pro our own manager, can you believe it) in the match threads. But things go much further than that in some cases and as an example, there were so-called fans here and elsewhere joining in with the media braying at pictures of Wenger tripping and hurting himself. That suggests more that a desire to see to see Cazorla play centrally or a trophy being won. This suggests something nasty that no real fan would ever want a part of surely? Plus all the other stuff. We can have as many disagreements about the club and how it is run, managed, coached as we want because it's a free world. But there's also the facts to balance the criticism, what Wenger has put into this club and what he has achieved not just in the early years but also over the last decade. Who else could have done it? Seriously. Who else?

If he's to go on his way after almost two decades of service to the club then is it completely unreasonable to afford him the acknowledgement he thoroughly deserves? From what I gather you say yes and that's good. For others though, I stick with what I said. Value of nothing, short term gratification, bragging rights for those who probably don't have a clue how to measure an achievement. They could never be Norwich fans, could they? Seems to me they can't even be Arsenal fans.

You paint AW to almost being a victim in all this, a guy who grafted for years with no reward, there's no doubt AW achieved great things in the first part of his spell at Arsenal, brilliant football, success left right and centre noone can take that away from him.

I do have an issue with this picture you seem to paint of a man who works himself to the bone and is essentially, he's given a lot to Arsenal but let's be honest here it's not without reward he's a multimillionaire because of it and one of the best paid managers in world football, he's got a lot from this club as well, years of loyalty (something most managers dream about) and a lifestyle most people can only can fantasize about in their wildest dreams.

Sometimes you have to look at it for what it is, much like Brian Clough he's had his time and football has moved on and sadly he's been unable to adapt, if you switch his career round and he had 500 unsuccessful games I doubt he would have had a job with us for the second 500, no one is questioning his achievements, but after 9 years of the same patterns emerging season after season and the same problems, with injuries, transfers and collapses they're entitled to question whether he's the man to bring success back to the club.

As for the instant gratification comment (not from you) behave it's been 9 years since this great club won anything, that's too long for a club of our stature.

[KSE Comedy Club]

The suggestion is we all calm down and stop trying to hound our manager out of his job when we still have a season to complete, a vital CL spot to secure and a cup semi to play in. After that many things might happen but in the main I suppose we all want to get something positive from the run in so it would be better to get behind even a misfiring team because there's more chance of a result that way. The media and the opposition fans will do their worst anyway, media hacks and football fans like nothing better than do kick hard when somebody is down (we do it with Moyes). It's counter-productive and hurts ourselves when we join in with that shit against our own team though. And these "pro-Wengerites" will only stand more staunchly behind the manager if people inside our own camp start lobbing bricks at him. What else is expected?

Honestly, there are people hoping we miss out on the CL, people hoping we get crushed by the gypos, people posting up as much shit about Wenger as they can on our own message boards, fucks on twatter screaming abuse at the guy while having the nerve to pin an Arsenal badge to their name. That shit has to stop. Don't you think?

I cant speak for anyone else, but I agree with this post completely.

I do not wish to see the level of hatred and vitriol that is being spouted by some 'fans' at Wenger as he doesn't deserve it. I can appreciate what he has done for this magnificent club and rightly he will have his statue outside the emirates one day in recognition of his achievements.

But....and there is a but, I do feel that the end of this season is the time for him to say goodbye and walk away. I'm even starting to think that he may choose not to sign a new deal, the poor guy is looking dishevelled and broken every time we loose and he is running out of answers and ideas.

The last thing I think anyone wants is for Wenger to be sacked and look like a broken mess at the end of it all. Personally I would be disgusted if that happened.

I think we should go all out to win the FA cup, secure top 4 and then let Wenger leave by mutual consent.

Don't get me wrong, I will still come on here and moan like fuck at him when I thing he's fucked up and talked bullshit about it, but that is just venting anger at the time. I don't hate the man ffs!

The idiots that want us to fail are exactly that and nothing more.

[Power n Glory]

First up, the jury isn't out on Kroenke and whether his end game is to the maximum benefit of the club. The release of proper funds for a major signing was a good indicator though. I stand fully behind what I said about those who put little in and took the maximum at a time when finances were crucial. Unbelievably some are accusing Wenger of this and never a mention of the ones who pocketed ten thousand times their meagre investment. It was never about instant gratification, it was about the possibility of having the future taken away (remember the boardroom stabbings?) and the patience you mention being exchanged for a confidence trick rather than the real prize - which is the financial muscle to compete at the top of the game. The competing can't come before that, at least not on a consistent basis. One step follows the next and if the first indications are a prelude to delivering the remainder of what was promised when this project began then it's pure insanity to kick it all in at the death. For sure, it's still a risk but we're watching the big deals getting landed. We've all done the, "Are we there yet?", routine but now the answer is finally yes and we're pulling onto the driveway some stupid fuckers want to wrestle the wheel from the driver and crash the fucking car. I think it is because they have forgotten (or never knew) why they were on the journey in the first place and now they just hate the driver.

True enough, even with bolstered finances we can't dominate the criminals unless we bring our own criminal in (which I hope we don't because then everything really will have been for nothing), but we are in the game at least. We can spend as much as teams like Utd (marketing giants) and Liverpool (short termism with their finances), we can start replacing lost talent rather than selling it. We all know we are short of players in the squad and there's a blatantly obvious reason for it and that reason is about to expire. The sentient arguments about Wenger struggling as a coach (certainly not as a manager because he's proved his worth in that discipline over and over again) I understand. It could well be Wenger moves up and a more training ground focused coach with a tighter remit is brought in. That could happen. But the hatred and ridicule has gone way beyond such reasonable debates.

This guy hasn't stolen anything from the club, he's poured everything he can give into it. But we haven't managed to overcome the billionaires yet and we are still prone to the effects of underinvestment (the opportunity cost of investment elsewhere) when a few players hit the treatment table. And that's disappointing and frustrating. And it's pointed out by the "pro-Wengerites" (pro our own manager, can you believe it) in the match threads. But things go much further than that in some cases and as an example, there were so-called fans here and elsewhere joining in with the media braying at pictures of Wenger tripping and hurting himself. That suggests more that a desire to see to see Cazorla play centrally or a trophy being won. This suggests something nasty that no real fan would ever want a part of surely? Plus all the other stuff. We can have as many disagreements about the club and how it is run, managed, coached as we want because it's a free world. But there's also the facts to balance the criticism, what Wenger has put into this club and what he has achieved not just in the early years but also over the last decade. Who else could have done it? Seriously. Who else?

If he's to go on his way after almost two decades of service to the club then is it completely unreasonable to afford him the acknowledgement he thoroughly deserves? From what I gather you say yes and that's good. For others though, I stick with what I said. Value of nothing, short term gratification, bragging rights for those who probably don't have a clue how to measure an achievement. They could never be Norwich fans, could they? Seems to me they can't even be Arsenal fans.

Wenger will get his due credit when he finally steps down or a few years after he's gone. That's just the way these things can work when things are heated. People will look back on the memories and remember the glory years. It's like any relationship that's gone the distance. Ups and downs. At the moment it's on a down and you can't really take to heart some of the extreme comments. It's impossible to police that over the net. Just look at the back and forth that goes on here regarding certain players past and present. There is outright disrespect and disdain expressed in some of the comments reserved for players and Board members that represent Arsenal. You yourself get involved in that sort of talk and the same guys that may agree with you about an underperforming Giroud/Walcott or Gazidis/Kronke may have no reservations about sticking it to an underperforming manager. Where do you draw the line? It's pointless trying to police it. Just steer the conversation in a new direction. That's a side issue anyway.

The main point is where do we go now with Wenger? I disagree with your point about us pulling into the driveway and we're trying to wrestle the wheel from the driver. If Wenger stepping down were to result in us falling to pieces, then this whole stadium move was pretty pointless. It's supposed to secure our position as an elite club for years after Wenger. When this move was planned over 10 years ago, we couldn't predict the changes to the game and we may need to adjust slightly. Wenger will have to adjust or the game will bypass him. His training methods and tactics used in the late 90s won't work today. The transfer market strategy that worked then won't work now. Given the outcry by the fans, it's pretty clear that we want a change but will he respond and just plod along as if he doesn't need to adjust? It's like last nights game. The most frustrating thing is to see no response or adjustment and that just ticks people off.

[selassie]

Wenger will get his due credit when he finally steps down or a few years after he's gone. That's just the way these things can work when things are heated. People will look back on the memories and remember the glory years. It's like any relationship that's gone the distance. Ups and downs. At the moment it's on a down and you can't really take to heart some of the extreme comments. It's impossible to police that over the net. Just look at the back and forth that goes on here regarding certain players past and present. There is outright disrespect and disdain expressed in some of the comments reserved for players and Board members that represent Arsenal. You yourself get involved in that sort of talk and the same guys that may agree with you about an underperforming Giroud/Walcott or Gazidis/Kronke may have no reservations about sticking it to an underperforming manager. Where do you draw the line? It's pointless trying to police it. Just steer the conversation in a new direction. That's a side issue anyway.

The main point is where do we go now with Wenger? I disagree with your point about us pulling into the driveway and we're trying to wrestle the wheel from the driver. If Wenger stepping down were to result in us falling to pieces, then this whole stadium move was pretty pointless. It's supposed to secure our position as an elite club for years after Wenger. When this move was planned over 10 years ago, we couldn't predict the changes to the game and we may need to adjust slightly. Wenger will have to adjust or the game will bypass him. His training methods and tactics used in the late 90s won't work today. The transfer market strategy that worked then won't work now. Given the outcry by the fans, it's pretty clear that we want a change but will he respond and just plod along as if he doesn't need to adjust? It's like last nights game. The most frustrating thing is to see no response or adjustment and that just ticks people off.

Excellent post P'n'G.

Totally agree with all of it.

[Zerlathon]

Although I do believe that Wenger should shoulder some of the blame, I do not think it is entirely his fault.

I get the impression that the Board have this blind optimism that Wenger does everything right (whether this is fuelled by the revenue his business dealings generate is for another debate). I don't believe that Bould falls into this category, but when you have 20 other people going yes to everything you say with only 1 saying otherwise, then human nature usually leans towards the majority.

It's almost as if Wenger has become a bratty childhood star surrounded by a bunch of "Yes Men" and he's ignoring his 1 true Friend.

I wholeheartedly agree that things need to change, but I do not believe that this should be the Manager...

Personally, I think they should bring Dein back as well as allow Usamov to be part of the Board (which I know alot of people will disagree with).

Dein & Wenger were a perfect match, as they are both Friends and trust eachother wholeheartedly. I don't get the impression that Wenger feels the same with Gazidis, so he's trying to shoulder too much of the burden. The drop in form at Arsenal has been on a steady decline since his departure, and I do not believe it was simply coincidence.

The whole matter about our fractured ownership is almost laughable. It's like watching a bunch of kids arguing about who gets to next play on the swing. Let him come aboard and put his money where his mouth is. Worry less about the needless politics and get the Club back on the road to success!

[Niall_Quinn]

Guys, we are in danger of scraping the bottom of the deepest buried barrel here. In the last couple of posts I can see there is zero actual appreciation of the good things that have happened at this club over the last years, or at least any appreciation is an impatient lip service in anticipation of some main course that is undefined and apparently left up to the gods or devils to produce. We're even suggesting opening the door to a murderer, thief, human rights abuser, why? Because he has cash. Well Wenger and the few who stuck it out now have cash too and nobody died. When Wenger leaves I certainly hope we can do the bare minimum and afford him some credit, a couple of years thereafter. Hopefully we won't congratulate ourselves too much for our restrained generosity, or maybe we will. I also hope we remember how half our fan base reacted when a few adverse chips went down but I think amnesia will be the preference. Crashing the car is a reference to the fracture between the fans, the club will go on regardless.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

Guys, we are in danger of scraping the bottom of the deepest buried barrel here. In the last couple of posts I can see there is zero actual appreciation of the good things that have happened at this club over the last years, or at least any appreciation is an impatient lip service in anticipation of some main course that is undefined and apparently left up to the gods or devils to produce. We're even suggesting opening the door to a murderer, thief, human rights abuser, why? Because he has cash. Well Wenger and the few who stuck it out now have cash too and nobody died. When Wenger leaves I certainly hope we can do the bare minimum and afford him some credit, a couple of years thereafter. Hopefully we won't congratulate ourselves too much for our restrained generosity, or maybe we will. I also hope we remember how half our fan base reacted when a few adverse chips went down but I think amnesia will be the preference. Crashing the car is a reference to the fracture between the fans, the club will go on regardless.

I think the point they're trying to make, or at least the point that is the most sensible angle regarding the Wenger debate, is that the manager oversaw the stadium move. He was the only manager in the world that could have kept us in the top 4 whilst paying the stadium debt off. Now we're virtually debt free and have reached the land of promise i.e. summer 2014 (which may I add, Gazidis and co kept banging on about as it was apparently the time the financial shackles would come off), the question is whether Wenger can help us push on and go back to winning trophies or whether he has taken this team as far as he can.

In this debate there are 2 arguments:
1. If Wenger leaves, we could nosedive. His grip at the club has been unhealthy, literally running every aspect of it. If someone with so much control leaves, it's only natural for the team to nosedive. As such, many don't want him to leave. If Wenger stays, he could use our accumulated money to help us push on. If he was present during our drought and poverty, then he should be allowed to spend the money when we've moved into prosperity.
2. He has been caught out in big games over the years. He does not invest in players. The squad seems to melt at the crucial point of a season. He is now the problem rather than the solution. It's a perfectly reasonable argument to make after years of crap and disappointment, people have had enough of embarrassing 4th placed finishes.

But if we go onto win the FA cup it would mark a new mentality among these players. It would mean the players trust Wenger in terms of trophy delivery, and it would also mean the players would believe in themselves. So far it has all been talk but we have a chance to put it into practice by winning the FA cup this season. If we fail to win the cup, then I think it means Wenger has taken the team as far as he can. He said he was here to leave a legacy and he has certainly achieved that. If we win the FA cup, then as Lettuce says, it would be silly to get rid of him as many of the players have been waiting to win a trophy under Wenger so leaving when they've finally achieved that would be self-defeating. Wenger could build on the FA cup and give the league a better shot next season.

Whether he stays or goes rests on the FA cup, and no matter how silly that sounds in the grand scheme of things, that is the truth.

[Zerlathon]

Guys, we are in danger of scraping the bottom of the deepest buried barrel here. In the last couple of posts I can see there is zero actual appreciation of the good things that have happened at this club over the last years, or at least any appreciation is an impatient lip service in anticipation of some main course that is undefined and apparently left up to the gods or devils to produce. We're even suggesting opening the door to a murderer, thief, human rights abuser, why? Because he has cash. Well Wenger and the few who stuck it out now have cash too and nobody died. When Wenger leaves I certainly hope we can do the bare minimum and afford him some credit, a couple of years thereafter. Hopefully we won't congratulate ourselves too much for our restrained generosity, or maybe we will. I also hope we remember how half our fan base reacted when a few adverse chips went down but I think amnesia will be the preference. Crashing the car is a reference to the fracture between the fans, the club will go on regardless.

Zero appreciation? Perhaps I didn't really explain myself properly (can only really post on my break, so am a little rushed)...

Wenger - He will always have my respect, as he has done amazing things for Arsenal. I cannot think of a Manager who has done so much for a Club as he has. I think that there needs to be a change in the attitude behind closed doors, as I don't believe that there are many behind who are willing to point out the flaws in Wenger's philosophy in the modern game. Sure it worked a decade ago, but that is quite some time ago and people are used to it. You're never going to get better if there is nobody close to you telling you that you are doing something wrong. As I said before, I would like Wenger to stay!

Usamov - Yeah I can see how that can be perceived wrong (to which I apologise). Let me just clarify, I don't like him as an individual and his morals and business etiquette are questionable (to say the least). I did not mean that I want Arsenal to spend any of his cash, I just find it frustrating that he can spout all this crap to the Media about how he loves Arsenal and wants them to succeed, but at the same time hiding behind the "well I'm not part of the board so I can't do anything" when shit hits the fan. Ideally, I would prefer that he sold his shares and went elsewhere, but that is unlikely to happen anytime soon. I just feel that the effort spent with all the politics could be better invested in taking the Club forward.

I hope that explains my position a little further.

[Niall_Quinn]

Zero appreciation? Perhaps I didn't really explain myself properly (can only really post on my break, so am a little rushed)...

Wenger - He will always have my respect, as he has done amazing things for Arsenal. I cannot think of a Manager who has done so much for a Club as he has. I think that there needs to be a change in the attitude behind closed doors, as I don't believe that there are many behind who are willing to point out the flaws in Wenger's philosophy in the modern game. Sure it worked a decade ago, but that is quite some time ago and people are used to it. You're never going to get better if there is nobody close to you telling you that you are doing something wrong. As I said before, I would like Wenger to stay!

Usamov - Yeah I can see how that can be perceived wrong (to which I apologise). Let me just clarify, I don't like him as an individual and his morals and business etiquette are questionable (to say the least). I did not mean that I want Arsenal to spend any of his cash, I just find it frustrating that he can spout all this crap to the Media about how he loves Arsenal and wants them to succeed, but at the same time hiding behind the "well I'm not part of the board so I can't do anything" when shit hits the fan. Ideally, I would prefer that he sold his shares and went elsewhere, but that is unlikely to happen anytime soon. I just feel that the effort spent with all the politics could be better invested in taking the Club forward.

I hope that explains my position a little further.

Mixed response to two posts, I didn't detect a lack of appreciation for Wenger's efforts in your post. It was the Usmanov thing that floored me - didn't realise you were advocating unity by getting rid of him. Agreed, two masters is very counterproductive.