The Bitter Truth?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I really dont understand HCZs position because he is all over the place. Is it that this club with the 3rd highest turnover in the EPL. soon to be the 2nd when the new sponsorships kick in cannot afford to pay its best players commensurately, Or that we cannot afford to pay high enough transfer fees to get the players we need, Or that there really is nothing we can do on the finance side so we should just accept 4th...or maybe 5th or then again 6th seeeing as Everton, Spuds and Pool are better run clubs than we.

Everton are better than us because they have been better in the transfer market than Wenger (again because everyone sees things in a dualistic perspective they can't see the argument that the money isn't there and that Wenger has blundered with what little he has had avaliable to him) . But even with Everton it's ephemeral because their two best players are on loan. It's up to you what you feel able to accept or not accept, doubtless this season hasn't been good enough I'm simply making the point that the money isn't there to consistently challenge and I'm not convinced we would have done miles better with someone else the last few years, maybe the odd FA cup but when we cànt spend the same amount as spurs or Liverpool let alone Chelsea or City it's rather futile.

[Letters]

I'm not convinced Everton are better than us.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I'm not convinced Everton are better than us.

Well the table doesn't lie and the chances are they will be above us in the table within 48 hours

[Letters]

Well the table doesn't lie and the chances are they will be above us in the table within 48 hours

It's a point here and there at best. A point here and there over a season doesn't mean you're that clearly better than the other side, there are too many fine lines in games and they don't all even out over a season.
They've not been in Europe this year so they've not had that strain on their squad to deal with.
They probably will beat Sunderland away but they have both Manchester clubs to play at home yet, we've got an easy run-in.
IMO it'll be quite close at the end of the season, too close to say one is clearly better than the other whichever order we finish in.

[Globalgunner]

Everton are better than us because they have been better in the transfer market than Wenger (again because everyone sees things in a dualistic perspective they can't see the argument that the money isn't there and that Wenger has blundered with what little he has had avaliable to him) . But even with Everton it's ephemeral because their two best players are on loan. It's up to you what you feel able to accept or not accept, doubtless this season hasn't been good enough I'm simply making the point that the money isn't there to consistently challenge and I'm not convinced we would have done miles better with someone else the last few years, maybe the odd FA cup but when we cànt spend the same amount as spurs or Liverpool let alone Chelsea or City it's rather futile.

Every post on this board is an opinion......I simply cannot accept yours, its not substantive and certainly not logical...fatalistic...but not logical, ,Everton have not been above us all season and have not ended above us in 18 years so where is the logic that they are better than us. The season has so many turns yet to make. We as a club are underachieving but IMO 1 change could make all the difference. We certainly dont need more money to be able to consistently challenge

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

It's a point here and there at best. A point here and there over a season doesn't mean you're that clearly better than the other side, there are too many fine lines in games and they don't all even out over a season.
They've not been in Europe this year so they've not had that strain on their squad to deal with.
They probably will beat Sunderland away but they have both Manchester clubs to play at home yet, we've got an easy run-in.
IMO it'll be quite close at the end of the season, too close to say one is clearly better than the other whichever order we finish in.

I'm merely talking about the current state of our squads, their strike force is vastly better than us and their midfield is better than ours made up of those over or at least pushing thirty. Who don't have the pace or legs to prevent the humiliation that sides like Everton will lavish upon them

[Power n Glory]

I agree about the dross being overpaid obscene wages and it hasn't helped. But since Van Persie departed you can see although we prevaricated we agreed to signing up Walcott on 100k a week, and now Ramsey has joined him and yes that is stretching us to the limit to stop them going to city and Chelsea. With Flamini it was clear we weren't prepared to pay him what he wanted in 2008, and Nasri and Van Persie are on a higher quality bracket that anyone we've got at the club now (with perhaps the exception of Ozil) so we were always bound to lose players like that when clubs will offer them up to 200k a week.

But if we didn’t pay dross players so much we’d be able to pay out bigger wages to the players that haven’t actually earned the right to command that sort of fee. It’s not even just dross player – Wilshere, Gibbs and Ramsey shouldn’t be on big contracts. £85k a week for Wilshere is a joke. We offered that to him whilst he was still crocked. We have no idea if he’ll ever reach that potential and if he doesn’t, we’re stuck paying that out. We doll out the money too early and it’s based on potential instead of actual performances. Out of the three players mentioned, say it’s only Ramsey that delivers on the pitch and when his next contract is due. Say he feels he deserves a lot more but we can’t pay because the wage bill is bloated and players on high wages that haven’t fulfilled their potential are still on the books and difficult to shift? The ‘dross’ we paid money out to originally all had potential. Djourou, Denilson, Beny, Diaby….all had moments where we thought they be great in the future.

Also, I think it’s time we stopped using other clubs finances as an excuse to why he have want away players. It’s the lack of progress, poor polices and management that eventually grinds the players down and they leave. We haven’t had a player that’s coveted by the whole of Europe in a long time. Cesc and the whole Barca saga was the last I recall and he left because he knew Arsenal had taken him as far as he could go. The other clubs are taking advantage of our situation and it’s never a case of us having player that clubs just want to throw money at.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

[QUOTE=Globalgunner;386732]Every post on this board is an opinion......I simply cannot accept yours, its not substantive and certainly not logical...fatalistic...but not logical, ,Everton have not been above us all season and have not ended above us in 18 years so where is the logic that they are better than us. The season has so many turns yet to make. We as a club are underachieving but IMO 1 change could make all the difference. We certainly dont need more money to be able to consistently challenge[/QUOTE

Obviously I feel the need to explain this, even though I felt this was obvious. Everton are better than us at the moment when you compare the players avaliable to both teams. They are not a bigger club than us that's patently ridiculous, but Roberto Martinez and what he has acheived whilst commendable are an example of why achievements with clubs with no money are ephemeral. They have even less money than us so even if they finish above us this season they won't consistently do it.

[Letters]

I'm merely talking about the current state of our squads, their strike force is vastly better than us and their midfield is better than ours made up of those over or at least pushing thirty. Who don't have the pace or legs to prevent the humiliation that sides like Everton will lavish upon them

For most of this season they've been nowhere near us. Our traditional collapse and a very good run from them and yes, now it's close.
But they have a harder run-in than us. It's obviously going to be close.
In the 3 games between the sides they won one comfortably, we won one comfortably and one was a draw.
There's no clear gap between the two sides.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

For most of this season they've been nowhere near us. Our traditional collapse and a very good run from them and yes, now it's close.
But they have a harder run-in than us. It's obviously going to be close.
In the 3 games between the sides they won one comfortably, we won one comfortably and one was a draw.
There's no clear gap between the two sides.

There's a clear gap in terms of attack. And yes they have a hard run in and may drop points but the point is I expect us to drop just as many points with easier fixtures, when we have won two out of the last seven away games I wouldn't be confident of us getting results away at Hull and Norwich. When we have won two games from the last eight in all competitions I've no faith in getting maximum points home to west ham, Newcastle and west brom