Are the doubters wrong about Wenger?

[IBK]

I never said he was a genius or anything like that. In fact it shows Wenger up even more that Liverpool have not even had to be special to get the job done.

I kind of feel the same...with qualifications.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

I don't think we would have had enough without that extra striker.

It seems pretty obvious to me that it is the major deficiency in the squad. Something that should have been addressed in the summer, and even with the benefit of doubt, should have been done in January.

The refusal to patch upbthe same problem witnessed against City, Liverpool, Chelsea and Everton, is also the reason.

The injuries have certainly played a part, and perhaps cost us 6 to 8 points? But I'm afraid you never win the league unless you take another couple of scalps from your main rivals.

The findings are quite compelling. If we accept that having fewer injuries would have resulted in 6-8 points more, then that puts us quite comfortably in second place with a chance of winning the actual league with the run in being easier than Liverpool's.

So actually even without the extra striker, suggesting we would be 6-8 points better off with fewer injuries means we might have won the league in any case. All that is to say, maybe the familiarity with the horrendous injury situation has caused us to downplay its significance this season.

I still think Wenger's deficiencies are plain to see and the lack of quality in the forward position is a huge factor, like you or anyone else does, but perhaps we don't cut quite the hopeless sorry arse reflection we see looking back at us....

I do think it is high time Wenger read (or probably re-read) the art of war, borrowed a few mantras and got the edge back. Seek to crush your opponent, not simply defeat him. With that attitude we might be looking at his third double and very few would be campaigning for his beheading right now.

[Power n Glory]

I agree with you - but the injury stats do make me wonder whether with Ramsey; Ozil and Walcott we would not have had our 2 month disaster? In other words - despite the failings that we know Wenger has (as all managers do) - would a 50% improvement in our fitness stats have meant that these failings would not have operated to sink our title ambitions?

We keep having the same injury problems and I would have thought Wenger and the staff would have learned by now but here we are again. A couple of seasons ago, Wenger admitted to overplaying Wilshere and that caused his injury. When he was recovering, he said he wouldn't rush him back but he went against his judgement, rushed him back and he was injured again. This season he admits to overplaying Ramsey and Giroud causing the form drop in Giroud and injury to Ramsey. If you look at the form drop in Giroud and Ozil before he was injured, you have to wonder if we'd have burned out all the other players if they weren't injured. Something has to change in the way we train and I seriously doubt we'll see this because Wenger seems reluctant to adapt. I don't want to hear the word 'unlucky' when talking of our injury problems and that's what seems to be ringing out of the Arsenal camp to explain our title race end.

[Letters]

It does annoy me when people go overboard about Wenger and act like he's this imbecile who has no clue what he's doing. He's clearly still a very good manager. But he obviously has his flaws. Tactics is one of them, he's not a manager of Ferguson's calibre who can win a title with a worse squad than his rivals. Our titles back in the day were won because we were better than everyone else. You don't need to be a tactical mastermind when you've got players like Henry and Bergkamp and a spine of Vieira, Campbell and Seaman. We were a fantastic side back then and with the billionaires sticking their beaks in I don't think we'll ever have a squad better than our rivals

IMO our collapse this season has been more a case of running out of steam and not having the depth to cope with injuries than 'bottling it'. We've won enough 'must win' games this year to suggest we can cope with some pressure and we've got to the Cup Final, you don't do that if you can't handle any pressure.

Liverpool have done brilliantly this year but they've not been in Europe this year and they've had one of the best players in world football stay fit all year, one injury to Suarez and they wouldn't be where they are right now and let's see if they sustain it next year with the added pressure of CL football, especially if someone manages to turn Suarez's head in the summer.

The injury problems need looking at, it kills us every year and it can't keep on being bad luck. And we obviously need more up front. The Ozil transfer and the big bid for Suarez last summer did suggest a new ambition and financial clout, continue that this summer and we could go very close next year. If we win the Cup then I think that could be a springboard to greater things, I'm not sure that's a great time to be changing manager. We should start preparing for a post-Wenger Arsenal either way but if he keeps us top 4 again, as it looks like he will, then there's no rush to change managers. Things could be better but, as ManYoo are finding out, they could be a whole lot worse.

[Niall_Quinn]

All good points Letters, but you still can't escape the inevitable conclusion that if we want to match our rivals like the chavs and the gypos we really should be spending £90mill a year to lose. Right now we're losing at a profit. That's why Wenger needs to go and somebody like Mancini or Grant or Hughes or Eriksson or AVB or Benitez or Di Matteo or Kidd or Pellegrini or Mourinho or Viali or Scolari or Hiddink or Ranieri or Ancelotti or Wilkins need to come in, preferably one after the other once per year, or maybe twice. Or three time.

Or four.

[Özim]

We should keep our next manager for 40,000,001 years if possible.

[Özim]

It does annoy me when people go overboard about Wenger and act like he's this imbecile who has no clue what he's doing. He's clearly still a very good manager. But he obviously has his flaws. Tactics is one of them, he's not a manager of Ferguson's calibre who can win a title with a worse squad than his rivals. Our titles back in the day were won because we were better than everyone else. You don't need to be a tactical mastermind when you've got players like Henry and Bergkamp and a spine of Vieira, Campbell and Seaman. We were a fantastic side back then and with the billionaires sticking their beaks in I don't think we'll ever have a squad better than our rivals

IMO our collapse this season has been more a case of running out of steam and not having the depth to cope with injuries than 'bottling it'. We've won enough 'must win' games this year to suggest we can cope with some pressure and we've got to the Cup Final, you don't do that if you can't handle any pressure.

Liverpool have done brilliantly this year but they've not been in Europe this year and they've had one of the best players in world football stay fit all year, one injury to Suarez and they wouldn't be where they are right now and let's see if they sustain it next year with the added pressure of CL football, especially if someone manages to turn Suarez's head in the summer.

The injury problems need looking at, it kills us every year and it can't keep on being bad luck. And we obviously need more up front. The Ozil transfer and the big bid for Suarez last summer did suggest a new ambition and financial clout, continue that this summer and we could go very close next year. If we win the Cup then I think that could be a springboard to greater things, I'm not sure that's a great time to be changing manager. We should start preparing for a post-Wenger Arsenal either way but if he keeps us top 4 again, as it looks like he will, then there's no rush to change managers. Things could be better but, as ManYoo are finding out, they could be a whole lot worse.

I'm not sure you can go too overboard after 9 years of seeing the same things over and over again, you can literally disappear for a year without needing to worry you've missed anything as the same thing happens every season.

The collapse is a combination of a lack of desire for the fight and tiredness, but that's due to a poor transfer policy and over reliance on players who just aren't good enough.

As for Liverpool this excuse about best player etc is nonsense, we had RVP on fire one season and he didn't win us the title, Liverpool have got a number of players who have been weighing in, having a top player is part and parcel of that, we had several many years ago was that an excuse for us winning or was it just what winning teams have?

Liverpool have basically been the best team in the 2nd part of the season, Champions often come on strong in that time, we did in 98, that's usually when titles are won, whenever we are in a position though the pressure, injuries, lack of desire and tiredness lead to us collapsing, it's a mental thing due to a manager unable to instill desire in his players.

It's also been shown that Rodgers adapts to the opposition and sets his team up to deal with his opponents, that's what good managers should do and Wenger just doesn't.

We need a few more top quality players IMO, in big games we're just too lightweight and don't have enough worldies, we also really need a new manager with new ideas who actually does what a manager should do, use tactics, make changes to affect games, sign players the team needs in the position we need and doesn't rely on injury prone players for years on end.

As MO rightly pointed out, Rodgers success is a damning reflection on us, Wenger has tried and failed for 9 years to do what Rodgers has done in two, he's told us his teams are the best, 2% away and ready for big things, those have never materialised.

[Globalgunner]

It does annoy me when people go overboard about Wenger and act like he's this imbecile who has no clue what he's doing. He's clearly still a very good manager. But he obviously has his flaws. Tactics is one of them, he's not a manager of Ferguson's calibre who can win a title with a worse squad than his rivals. Our titles back in the day were won because we were better than everyone else. You don't need to be a tactical mastermind when you've got players like Henry and Bergkamp and a spine of Vieira, Campbell and Seaman. We were a fantastic side back then and with the billionaires sticking their beaks in I don't think we'll ever have a squad better than our rivals

IMO our collapse this season has been more a case of running out of steam and not having the depth to cope with injuries than 'bottling it'. We've won enough 'must win' games this year to suggest we can cope with some pressure and we've got to the Cup Final, you don't do that if you can't handle any pressure.

Liverpool have done brilliantly this year but they've not been in Europe this year and they've had one of the best players in world football stay fit all year, one injury to Suarez and they wouldn't be where they are right now and let's see if they sustain it next year with the added pressure of CL football, especially if someone manages to turn Suarez's head in the summer.

The injury problems need looking at, it kills us every year and it can't keep on being bad luck. And we obviously need more up front. The Ozil transfer and the big bid for Suarez last summer did suggest a new ambition and financial clout, continue that this summer and we could go very close next year. If we win the Cup then I think that could be a springboard to greater things, I'm not sure that's a great time to be changing manager. We should start preparing for a post-Wenger Arsenal either way but if he keeps us top 4 again, as it looks like he will, then there's no rush to change managers. Things could be better but, as ManYoo are finding out, they could be a whole lot worse.

If you re read your post the first paragraph says everything and nullifys everything you've said after. He won titles when he had better players than everyone else and still IMO he grossly underperformed with those players who should have won back to back titles, who should have at least reached a CL final and won it. Wenger was the weak link even then and a bertter manager woukld have achieved those landmarks.

fast forward to 2008, a team with less physique but arguably as much talent technically, again the same crappy collapse.

2014. A much worse team with a deteriorating, stuck in a rut manager. You tell me what the way forward is?. Wenger may not be an imbecile and clueless. but he is grossly inadequate when it comes to top line management and basically not fit for purpose. Like a sports car for a family of 5 or a station wagon entered at Le Mans. Sentiments apart, he should just leave. We've had enough of his indulgent idiosyncracies. He will never tire of making the same mistakes year after year, I am fed up of it.

Next season City, Chelsea will improve, Pool will make the CL money count, United look like dumping Moyes, We will stay the same as Wenger has won us the FA cup so lets stick with him an FA cup won on the back of 4 straight home draws.

We will probably have to rely on the Ebola virus decimating our oppositions squads to ensure our top 4 place, cos we sure as hell wont win the league

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

If you re read your post the first paragraph says everything and nullifys everything you've said after. He won titles when he had better players than everyone else and still IMO he grossly underperformed with those players who should have won back to back titles, who should have at least reached a CL final and won it. Wenger was the weak link even then and a bertter manager woukld have achieved those landmarks.

fast forward to 2008, a team with less physique but arguably as much talent technically, again the same crappy collapse.

2014. A much worse team with a deteriorating, stuck in a rut manager. You tell me what the way forward is?. Wenger may not be an imbecile and clueless. but he is grossly inadequate when it comes to top line management and basically not fit for purpose. Like a sports car for a family of 5 or a station wagon entered at Le Mans. Sentiments apart, he should just leave. We've had enough of his indulgent idiosyncracies. He will never tire of making the same mistakes year after year, I am fed up of it.

Next season City, Chelsea will improve, Pool will make the CL money count, United look like dumping Moyes, We will stay the same as Wenger has won us the FA cup so lets stick with him an FA cup won on the back of 4 straight home draws.

We will probably have to rely on the Ebola virus decimating our oppositions squads to ensure our top 4 place, cos we sure as hell wont win the league

In this game if you stand still you invariably end up going backwards, what made Wenger special was his ability to identify burgeoning talent at a young age and turn potential into achievement. But the problem is that ability is null and void when other clubs became wise to it and employed vast scouting networks to create the Wenger model on a giant scale and that's why potential used to be 500k, and now it costs you 20 million. The same with his approach to dietary requirements and coaching at the time revolutionary but now seemingly self evident and rather old hat.
The stagnancy is not just there in the same results and performances year in, year out its evident in how little the back room staff has changed in 17 years, the problem with Wenger is that he feels a loyalty to these people who have served him well once but now are spent and isn't ruthless and calculating enough to go back to the drawing board. It's the same with players, he has wasted too much time on players who are either perennially injured or not good enough out of a sense of loyalty and in many respects this loyalty has never been paid back to him.
Wenger does not seem to want to change his approach and that's why I want him to go, but at the same time as I have consistently said I want him to go with our gratitude not our contempt ringing in his ears.

[LDG]

In this game if you stand still you invariably end up going backwards, what made Wenger special was his ability to identify burgeoning talent at a young age and turn potential into achievement. But the problem is that ability is null and void when other clubs became wise to it and employed vast scouting networks to create the Wenger model on a giant scale and that's why potential used to be 500k, and now it costs you 20 million. The same with his approach to dietary requirements and coaching at the time revolutionary but now seemingly self evident and rather old hat.
The stagnancy is not just there in the same results and performances year in, year out its evident in how little the back room staff has changed in 17 years, the problem with Wenger is that he feels a loyalty to these people who have served him well once but now are spent and isn't ruthless and calculating enough to go back to the drawing board. It's the same with players, he has wasted too much time on players who are either perennially injured or not good enough out of a sense of loyalty and in many respects this loyalty has never been paid back to him.
Wenger does not seem to want to change his approach and that's why I want him to go, but at the same time as I have consistently said I want him to go with our gratitude not our contempt ringing in his ears.

Well said.

Whilst most of us agree that his time is at an end, it still disgusts me the vitriol, shit and internet spew being showered on him.

How can you call yourself a fan of a club, when your first priority is to slag off anything and everything about us?

Yes Wenger needs to go. Yes, he is guilty of stagnating. But he has also, lets not forget, kept us from slipping into a different part of the table, using the very strengths we praised him for in his early tenure.

Time for a fresh face to build on the solid foundations. But I can't tell you how nausiating it is to be associated with the filth who sit behind their keyboards throwing turds, with such little knowledge of football to back it up. Opinion is one thing. Being able to articulate it is another. And if you have nothing positive to say, just fuck off will ya.