Has Wenger really benefitted AFC since 2006?

[Daniele]

Yep agreed, if he was/is being judged on a RESULTS only basis then he's been a complete failure & should step down.

He only really gets given the benefit of the doubt due to finances and the complete lack of clarity surrounding it at the club.

Saying that, losing the Carling Cup to Birmingham (a team who operate in a completely different market to us) pretty much confirmed that finances really don't play a major part in our failure over the past few seasons.

I was one of the few saying 'give AW one more year' at the end of last season. I just wanted to see how he dealt with the trasfers in the summer. He has fucked it up big time and now has to go. We have Arteta and Benayoun where we had Cesc and Nasri. That says it all.

[Flavs]

Not totally accurate. We know that he wields the kind of power that has enabled him to have the board's support while indulging his experiments; to be given almost unlimited time to do so; and to fail repeatedly to win silverware in circumstances where another manager of a club as big as Arsenal would have been long gone - despite his early success.

Sub, i think what probably happened was that when Wenger submitted his original plan to the board for the stadium move it was firmed up with this youth development/sell on plan as well fro robustness. The romantic in me wants to congratulate Wenger for keeping us in it and a few times being very close to winning stuffs while paying off the stadium and not have the luxury of a sugar daddy. The realist in me see's how close we have come and nearly cries that with a few minor deviations from the plan we could have pushed on and won things. I am not trophy obsessed, i don't think many of us are but when we have come so close only to have it snatched away i do have to question whether a different manager could have took us further once Wenger had done the groundwork.

I found myself during last seasons debacle wondering what a man motivator manager such as Coyle or Holloway could do with our player, or what a tactics expert such as Moyes or Hodgson would do with our defence and i couldn't see them being worse than Wenger, we may lose the business and economics side of things by sacking him but are we far enough through the mortgage repayments for that to matter? We now have 2 billionaire owners, could they not swell the coffers to rid us of debt?

[AKBapologist]

Coyle who motivated Botlon to a 5 - 0 trashing at Wembley vs Stoke? Or Holloway who motivated a blackpool side back to the championship, the Holloways who's tactically astute and defensively solid high line bravely limited the score to just a 6 - 0 trashing against the donkey that is wenger this time last season?

GW

[selassie]

I was one of the few saying 'give AW one more year' at the end of last season. I just wanted to see how he dealt with the trasfers in the summer. He has fucked it up big time and now has to go. We have Arteta and Benayoun where we had Cesc and Nasri. That says it all.

I wanted him gone last summer, I thought he made a complete mess of last summers window with his dithering.

The signings of Arteta & Benayoun smack of desperation post 8-2 humiliation against Man U. We had all summer to do our business, quite why he had to go bargain hunting on the last day of the window is anybodies guess.

[IBK]

Sub, i think what probably happened was that when Wenger submitted his original plan to the board for the stadium move it was firmed up with this youth development/sell on plan as well fro robustness. The romantic in me wants to congratulate Wenger for keeping us in it and a few times being very close to winning stuffs while paying off the stadium and not have the luxury of a sugar daddy. The realist in me see's how close we have come and nearly cries that with a few minor deviations from the plan we could have pushed on and won things. I am not trophy obsessed, i don't think many of us are but when we have come so close only to have it snatched away i do have to question whether a different manager could have took us further once Wenger had done the groundwork.

I found myself during last seasons debacle wondering what a man motivator manager such as Coyle or Holloway could do with our player, or what a tactics expert such as Moyes or Hodgson would do with our defence and i couldn't see them being worse than Wenger, we may lose the business and economics side of things by sacking him but are we far enough through the mortgage repayments for that to matter? We now have 2 billionaire owners, could they not swell the coffers to rid us of debt?

I agree with all that. And the purpose of my thread was to try to consider whether AW has become, in fact a net asset or a net liability, when you take both the financials and the football side of things together. Your question

I do have to question whether a different manager could have took us further once Wenger had done the groundwork.

Is on point because for me it encapsulates the dilemna we are in. A less stubborn man with less of a God complex might have acknowledged his own shortcomings and achieved this by bringing in a heavyweight No. 2. Not Wenger. It seems to be his way and his way alone, no matter how obvious the defects. I mean you could almost laugh, couldn't you? He persists and persists with certain players who keep failing him when everyone else in the world can see his folly, and then guess what? They let him down, and those who aren't taken away from him against his wishes he can't sell on because they are overpaid.

He did the business for 3/4 of the season in 07/08 and 10/11 - both years when the opposition wasn't at its best - and the potential shown in the former season, together with the good business he has done finance wise has kept him in power. But instead of learning from his mistakes that season; strengthening properly and developing/mixing up our tactics, Wenger continues to do the same thing again and again...

And its this that has seen him fall so far from grace, because Gooners (and everyone else) have realised that the 'good business' has come at a high price - that price being a manager who is now treating our great club as his personal vanity project.

He has given us a lot, and that is why I would be delighted if our relatively modest signings revitalise and transform the team. But the greater impression is that the manager has driven us into a cul de sac.

[IBK]

Coyle who motivated Botlon to a 5 - 0 trashing at Wembley vs Stoke? Or Holloway who motivated a blackpool side back to the championship, the Holloways who's tactically astute and defensively solid high line bravely limited the score to just a 6 - 0 trashing against the donkey that is wenger this time last season?

GW

....with players every bit of the quality that we have, right? *sighs*

[Flavs]

Coyle who motivated Botlon to a 5 - 0 trashing at Wembley vs Stoke? Or Holloway who motivated a blackpool side back to the championship, the Holloways who's tactically astute and defensively solid high line bravely limited the score to just a 6 - 0 trashing against the donkey that is wenger this time last season?

GW

Shush child the grown ups are speaking.

[Özim]

Coyle who motivated Botlon to a 5 - 0 trashing at Wembley vs Stoke? Or Holloway who motivated a blackpool side back to the championship, the Holloways who's tactically astute and defensively solid high line bravely limited the score to just a 6 - 0 trashing against the donkey that is wenger this time last season?

GW

1896

That's the last time Arsenal conceded 8 goals in a match, enough said really. This should never happen to a big club in modern day football whatever the circumstances might be (we didn't even have that many players out, Man U had almost as many out).

[AKBapologist]

....with players every bit of the quality that we have, right? *sighs*

The quality that you daily deride the manager for bringing in, putting on high salary's whilst ridiculing for failing to replace? And why should Bolton need top players to not lose 5-0 vs stoke?

*sighs*

[selassie]

Interesting question - quite why Wenger gets so much leeway. Partly explained by his pre 2005 success but IMO its also because like SAF he has become assimilated into the club to such a massive degree (philosphy; business model; degree of control over all aspects of the playing side) that its not really like getting rid of a manager in the ordinary sense. Difference is that SAF has brought footballing success and undoubtedly a footballing legacy even when he steps down.

Yep totally agree, especially the parts I've highlighted. Whilst most Managers have an element of Power, Arsene as you have stated has so much that many of the policies he's implemented cross the boundaries of Football Manager & Director Of Football in Job description type sense.

What is going to be very interesting is how Arsene's successor manages the policies implemented because I can't for one minute think the board will allow a new Manager to step in and change everything overnight.