Match Reaction - Arsenal 1-2 Watford

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

You again seem to have a problem where you are unable to look at things as a single issue and have to lump them all in together

Its reasonable to suggest that fans don't have the same affect on revenue that they had, with giant corporate deals and tv money that's an unfortunate fact. I've never suggested empty stadiums wouldn't be problematic for the club.

The issue about fans leaving early is again a single issue, I will concede that i don't agree with Moh that it had any bearing on our performance against Watford and therefore didn't seem particularly relevant to mention at the time. But i'm not going to pretend that i've never observed it when I constantly have and long before the frustration with Wenger grew (unless you are saying a majority of fans wanted Wenger out in 2007?)

A lot of my comments are openly ruminating, I have questioned whether a massive fan protest would affect the board's decision making (and actually i think i was probably wrong about that) and I have questioned whether the fans themselves would be engaged enough to begin a mass protest to begin with (and my point above stipulates that this kind of needling of the fans might well provoke such a situation that might not arise otherwise).

I feel with you that there is a resentment when anyone disagrees with you, I'm an argumentative individual for sure but i think you're being a bit precious when you seem to think i'm doing it with the intention of Trolling you.

I remember the main point of disagreement we had some time ago where I said getting rid of Wenger wouldn't necessarily reset things automatically and the board are just a big a part of the problem, that they have gone to such pains to protect their man rather gives credence to that view. It's not an argument for keeping Wenger, every time i hear even the snifter of a rumour of him signing a two year extension i let out a rueful sigh because i desperately want him gone and I simply cannot understand the rational of anyone who seems satisfied with how things are going.

[Power n Glory]

Its reasonable to suggest that fans don't have the same affect on revenue that they had, with giant corporate deals and tv money that's an unfortunate fact. I've never suggested empty stadiums wouldn't be problematic for the club.

Why was there a discussion on revenue in the first place? Because the idea was that Wenger may walk if he sees he's harming the club financially and can't take it any further. So why stretch the point any further to argue against that?

When you come back and make the following statement after watching you argue with Letters over sponsorship revenue vs fan attendance as if they're not linked...it's a moment.

fan dissent even though they think fans should be more appreciative of Wenger....it's desperation because they know if the dissent continues it will have a negative impact with attracting sponsorship.

Argumentative....yep. As said, after stretching an argument, you've just done a 180 and linked sponsorship deals back to the fans.

As for the fans leaving early talk....I don't care. Similar to how we got into the discussion about the difference between the opinions of fans online compared to the Emirates (see how that links), I'm not going to jump to conclusions on why people are leaving. I tend to look at what's going on at the club, question that and then ask why people aren't staying away if unsatisfied.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Why was there a discussion on revenue in the first place? Because the idea was that Wenger may walk if he sees he's harming the club financially and can't take it any further. So why stretch the point any further to argue against that?

When you come back and make the following statement after watching you argue with Letters over sponsorship revenue vs fan attendance as if they're not linked...it's a moment.



Argumentative....yep. As said, after stretching an argument, you've just done a 180 and linked sponsorship deals back to the fans.

As for the fans leaving early talk....I don't care. Similar to how we got into the discussion about the difference between the opinions of fans online compared to the Emirates (see how that links), I'm not going to jump to conclusions on why people are leaving. I tend to look at what's going on at the club, question that and then ask why people aren't staying away if unsatisfied.

Again this solipsist attitude, whether you care or not is irrelevant my observations aren't always directed at you.

Fine you don't care about that, i had stopped talking about it in regards to you....and in fact only did so again when you rather arrogantly suggested that people shouldn't discuss the matter (who the hell are you to tell people what they should or should not be talking about).

Right so what happens when a sponsor does a deal with Arsenal football club, is it not kind of common that this sponsor then appears on the advertising hoardings and would it not discourage sponsors if their company is appearing on billboards in a stadium which is either half empty or full of disgruntled fans which is clearly visible when our games appear on tv.

I would see your point if this was a new point i'd made, but have made it quite a few times. You can call it doing a 180 if you like but only because i get the impression you can only look at things as one single issue, rather than several myriad issues. Im not arguing that fans protesting will have no effect any more because i now believe i was wrong about that.....

This is not contradictory to saying the fans direct impact on revenue is not what it was.

But actually (if you are referring to the point i made earlier) i also made the point that the board might not be 100% happy because Wenger's lack of on field success means they are missing out on even more lucrative sponsorship deals.....It was making the point that the board will care if it hurts their wallets.

In regards to the fan's attitude, i am referring to the observations of Tim Stillman and my own personal observations, it's not all encompassing....i haven't in anyway suggested that it's solid fact. In fact i produced it in the first place as a hypothesis, that you are dismissive of it is of no concern to me that you seem fit to tell me that i shouldn't mention it in the first place i am laughably contemptuous of.

[LDG]

Good read and sums up the disjointed mess we saw.

I was going to post that up.

Stillman is excellent. Great read....though he could have saved the eloquence and actually said "Wenger sees a good player, but he hasn't got a fucking clue unless he's forced into it"

It's a long held view by a few on here that by chance he sometimes stumbles upon a cohesive team because of circumstances beyond his control. And when that balance is disrupted (see Santi getting injured), he doesn't know how to replace it with different players.

Also, there's that stubborn / misplaced faith in a bunch of players that just don't cut it, regardless of their record. Giroud is a great player IMO, but if you want to play him, you have to play his way. You can't tippy tappy with him. Wenger just doesn't seem to get this.....

Oh well. Been done to death I guess.

[Power n Glory]

I was going to post that up.

Stillman is excellent. Great read....though he could have saved the eloquence and actually said "Wenger sees a good player, but he hasn't got a fucking clue unless he's forced into it"

It's a long held view by a few on here that by chance he sometimes stumbles upon a cohesive team because of circumstances beyond his control. And when that balance is disrupted (see Santi getting injured), he doesn't know how to replace it with different players.

Also, there's that stubborn / misplaced faith in a bunch of players that just don't cut it, regardless of their record. Giroud is a great player IMO, but if you want to play him, you have to play his way. You can't tippy tappy with him. Wenger just doesn't seem to get this.....

Oh well. Been done to death I guess.

I've got a lot of time for Stillman. Best thing on Arseblog to be honest. It's worth checking out the Arsenal Vision Podcast. Gooner Ramble isn't bad either. A guy named Clive usually talks on there but featured on Arsenal Vision Podcast this week in place of Tim. Some good debates and observations about how we play.

If rotation is a problem for Wenger, more signings and more money being made available to him is pretty pointless. But around and around we go.

[Power n Glory]

Right so what happens when a sponsor does a deal with Arsenal football club, is it not kind of common that this sponsor then appears on the advertising hoardings and would it not discourage sponsors if their company is appearing on billboards in a stadium which is either half empty or full of disgruntled fans which is clearly visible when our games appear on tv.

I would see your point if this was a new point i'd made, but have made it quite a few times. You can call it doing a 180 if you like but only because i get the impression you can only look at things as one single issue, rather than several myriad issues. Im not arguing that fans protesting will have no effect any more because i now believe i was wrong about that.....

This is not contradictory to saying the fans direct impact on revenue is not what it was.

Where did you make that argument before?

Just to clear this up.

http://www.goonersweb.co.uk/forum/sh...?t=3875&page=8

Letters

The point PnG making about Wenger leaving if people stop going en masse. I agree that is the only way to affect change but I see the reason slightly differently. Wenger cares about success. I can't be bothered debating that, he may take a little too much pride in top 4 but of course he wants to do better, why would any manager at that level not want to be winning trophies? The board though...so long as the money keeps rolling in they couldn't give a monkeys so IMO the only way to get them to change anything is to cut off the source of the money which is us, ultimately. The problem is a lot of the real fans have already walked away or been priced out but there's a very long queue of tourists ready and willing to take their place.

Herb

Are you honestly arguing that we are the main source of the money?

Corporate sponsorship and TV deals are the main part of the money, so in that sense the only fans that can affect the outcome are those fans who watch from home and don't buy the subscription packages.....whilst i agree it wouldn't look good for a half empty stadium week in, week out it won't affect the club financially whatsoever.

Me

The fans are still the main source of income. It's not the largest source but if the fanbase starts to shrink, so does that corporate sponsorship pocket money. We’re able to squeeze more money out of these sponsors because we have the figures to back up a loyal fanbase that attend games week in week out and buy the merchandise. It’s why we’re trying to expand that following over in Asia and America. If the fans start to fall away, sponsors won’t be so eager to renew a deal under the same terms and may even decrease what they spend on us or walk away.

As for the TV money, clubs can’t be foolish and bet the house on that money being sustainable. Neglect your core fans, along with the stadium and we could end up like Serie A. Viewing figures have been down here in the UK and overseas. UEFA have also admitted that selling all the rights to BT Sports for the CL was a mistake. When those deals are up for a renewal, what’s on offer might not be so lucrative. The Board are smart enough to know that can't build a house on sand and expect it to stand the test of time.

There was a clear reason why sponsorship money was being discussed. To affect Wenger's position as manager. Maybe you're just being argumentative and lose track of what's being discussed. Can you now see the contradiction?

It's funny how you've even tried to hijack my original point about sponsors walking away if the fans start walking.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

whilst i agree it wouldn't look good for a half empty stadium week in, week out it won't affect the club financially whatsoever.


Well i accept that was a rather ridiculous statement to make.

But of course no-one has ever other than me ever got fed up and frustrated and thought what's the point it's not going to make any difference

But if it helps to say it a third time, I admitted i was wrong in this belief (which basically was it doesn't matter what the fans do) and in this particular instance the argument was made more out of petulance.

However i did backtrack on that as i recall as the post went on....meh it's a football forum board

But to be clear i have made the argument about sponsorship money before (actually long before the statement you have tried to present to me) your contention that I've hijacked your point again rather goes back to your solipsism where somehow because you think you've made a point it is only you that has ever thought this.

Maybe you want to look at everything i've posted on here in the last 12 months to see if i'm lying or not, but hijacking your point really?....first of all i didn't introduce it like it hadn't been discussed before because i know it has.

[Power n Glory]

Whatever.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Whatever.

Ok and just to clarify can we just go ahead and assume that i'm going to ignore you from now on whenever you tell me what i should and should not be discussing something you yourself have conveniently ignored when i've called you out on it.

So you don't get your pink knickers in a twist, i'll make sure i don't directly reply to you so you don't suffer a meltdown and assume i've dared disagree with you

Equally i won't try and dissuade you of your belief that i'm stealing your thoughts/ideas

[Power n Glory]

Back to being petulant...really?

You see the contradiction in what you posted though, right?