NLD (Sunday)

[Özim]

Football fans live in hope and everything is relative. When massive investment is poured into anything, investors expect a return. The fans are the major investors at this club, something routinely overlooked. They pay the world record ticket prices, they buy the merchandise, they pay the sky high TV subscription packages, the buy goods and services from the sponsors. The official "investors", like Kroenke, shuffle money around but they actually invest nothing. He's parked his money here like it's a savings account with a 100% interest rate. Easy money and zero risk in boom (before the bust) industry. His only risk is knowing when to get in (insider information no doubt) and knowing when to get out (ditto). So the fans have a big emotional attachment as well as a big financial attachment, one way or the other. The fans are the ones who yearn to see the club do well, not for the cash return that will never come, but for intangibles, joy, bragging rights, tribal supremacy, (dare I whisper it) entertainment... On that basis fans are pretty delusional to begin with, investing their all in a sport hijacked by emotionless sharks. So the odd win here and there will fuel the delusion, even though we all know deep down that nothing can ever come from our risk averse owners or our cash obsessed manager. I think the fans who start mellowing as the results improve are not trying to pretend we are solving problems or making progress, I think they are consoling themselves with the thought that if they can't scrape a little return from a Cup and a few wins to see out a horrible season then there's probably no point being involved. Ollie Holt, Chris Wenger and Ty are probably the last people on the planet who genuinely view Wenger as credible.

I don't disagree with any of that, my only point really is that this makes Wengers' life easier and signing a contract easier, it shouldn't be easy he should feel reall pressure and be held responsible for the disaster that has been unfolding in front of us, what seems to be happening is that he's getting off scot-free again, seems there's nothing he can do that really results in people unwilling to accept him still being here and making his stay here untenable.

[Letters]

Most impact in what way Zim? Most people look at Ty and think "what a dick!" not "well, he certainly makes some interesting points".
Agree that the only pressure will come when revenues fall, the board don't care about boos in the ground - if they're in the ground then people have still paid to be there. People not being there affects the balance sheet and that's when the board may sit up and take notice.

[Power n Glory]

Can't confuse apathy with support. Can't have blood and hell fire from the fans every match.

[Niall_Quinn]

You think this season has proved something about which there is no objective measure?
Interesting.

PS: Reading a book about (partly) about cognitive dissonance at the moment, this place is a hotbed of it.

There is no objective measure for the performance of a football manager? Are you serious? A manager has targets and a set amount of resources to work with. It is uncharacteristically simple to measure performance in sport. Wenger has failed in all respects this season, so far at least. Or am I wrong and, if so, how? And he may well fail in achieving the only target that counts at this club, the coveted Top 4 Trophy that leads to the bonus cash. And if he fails in that there will be consequences and knock-on failures. It's a scandal how poor he's been this season. Any other manager who has come close to being so poor has been given the push. Not Wenger though, for one reason and one reason alone - he's a cash cow for the non-footballing bastards upstairs. A willing cash cow, I should add. A cash cow that boasts about being a cash cow, with his prudence and sustainability bullshit as if he's some fund manager rather than the manager of a supposedly competitive sports outfit.

Wenger's target, every season, is financial. And he accepts that and thrives on it. THAT's what makes him the worst football manager in the world. He's not really a football manager at all. Do you see how by achieving his targets, season after season, he has become an anti-football man and a non-football manager? That's why he's the worst, because he's a massive fraud. We've seen how he performs when he tries to hit football oriented targets - we've all felt those humiliations as they have rolled in with alarming regularity.

He sold his soul. Look at the difference between the guy who arrived here and the guy he is now. Shame (as in, shame on him).

PS: That's irony, right?

[Niall_Quinn]

Maybe season tickets should be banned in football. Make the cunts earn their revenue week-in, week-out. Would certainly focus a few minds.

[Letters]

There is no objective measure for the performance of a football manager? Are you serious? A manager has targets and a set amount of resources to work with.

Yes, and every manager has different resources to work with in different situations so it's very hard to compare one manager to another in any objective way.

A manager in a lower league may be doing wonders with the resources he has, does that mean were he to replace Wenger (or any other manager at a top club) he would be doing better? Probably not, it's not as simple as that, the competition is at a higher level so the same manager might not do as well.

Looking at Leicester's resources what they did last year was incredible. So does that make Ranieri the best manager in world football? What about this season? They were flirting with a relegation battle before he left.

It is simple to measure performance in sport - you either win or you lose - but it's not so simple to look at the reasons behind that performance and measure performance of the people involved. You were laughing at the choice of referee for the FA Cup Final. If we lose that because we play poorly and Chelsea are just better than us then it would be fair to blame Wenger. If we play well, match them toe to toe and the ref decides to give Chelsea 2 soft penalties while denying us clear ones then it's less clear cut how much blame you can lay at Wenger's door.

Wenger has failed this season, as he did last season. That much is clear.
But there is no objective measure of how "good" or "bad" a manager is, that is subjective and there are a lot of factors to consider. It's why there will always be debates about who the "best" player or manager or club are, it's rarely clear cut.

[Niall_Quinn]

Yes, and every manager has different resources to work with in different situations so it's very hard to compare one manager to another in any objective way.

A manager in a lower league may be doing wonders with the resources he has, does that mean were he to replace Wenger (or any other manager at a top club) he would be doing better? Probably not, it's not as simple as that, the competition is at a higher level so the same manager might not do as well.

Looking at Leicester's resources what they did last year was incredible. So does that make Ranieri the best manager in world football? What about this season? They were flirting with a relegation battle before he left.

It is simple to measure performance in sport - you either win or you lose - but it's not so simple to look at the reasons behind that performance and measure performance of the people involved. You were laughing at the choice of referee for the FA Cup Final. If we lose that because we play poorly and Chelsea are just better than us then it would be fair to blame Wenger. If we play well, match them toe to toe and the ref decides to give Chelsea 2 soft penalties while denying us clear ones then it's less clear cut how much blame you can lay at Wenger's door.

Wenger has failed this season, as he did last season. That much is clear.
But there is no objective measure of how "good" or "bad" a manager is, that is subjective and there are a lot of factors to consider. It's why there will always be debates about who the "best" player or manager or club are, it's rarely clear cut.

Wenger has been failing for a decade. How long before we can say, on average, he's a total fuck-up? I didn't imply a lower division manager could come here and do a better job. I said Wenger's the worst manager in football - doing his job and hitting his targets, in relation to other managers doing their jobs and hitting their targets. We know what his job is and he's failed to do it for an incomparable length of time. I didn't say he was the least talented or least experienced, I said he was the worst and plainly he is.

But... Given his actual target is to make cash for a bunch of leeches, yes, in terms of what the leeches want he's the best in the business. Which still makes him the worst football manager in the world. And a sell out.

[Letters]

He's been failing for a decade, yet 3 years ago you were happy when he signed a new contract.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

But the conditions by which you claim he's the worst manager in football are totally arbitrary

He has failed to meet the expectations of fans or the rather extravagant promises made by Ivan Gazidis

He has failed to push the club further

To be the worst manager in football, he would have to have taken everything he's built and ruined it. Now objectively despite the constant frustration with the man are we really in a state of ruination?. Wenger has worn out his welcome with the fans but the question ultimately is would most top managers want to come here.

And I think the answer to that is yes. If he was the worst manager in football the club would be in a state where we would be desirable to no one.

[Niall_Quinn]

He's been failing for a decade, yet 3 years ago you were happy when he signed a new contract.

You keep on saying that as if it has never been addressed. I was happy with the progress when we started signing some decent players and was okay with him getting the chance to show what he could do with some money. Well fuck me, now we know. He's a bigger disaster with the cash than without it. But you are right, he has been failing for longer than a decade. I lost track.