Match reaction - Man City

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Think the issue is there's been a gradual decline and it doesn't look like stopping. We can say what we want about Sanchez but he's a world class player that adds drive and stature to the team. Will we spend to sign an adequate replacement or will he promote a youngster? The dressing room morale will drop when he leaves and these bunch of weak minded fools hardly need an excuse to drop their form.

I don't think it's inconceivable for us to finish below 6th, all it takes is for example, the Everton owner to appoint a decent manager, provide more funds and them to start playing, and that'll be another team to look out for. Or a team to do a Leicester and once again that's another team in the mix.

Just on my earlier point regarding the Hicks & Gillete situation, I think that could be avoided with a new manager. Someone to bring success on the pitch and bring a bit of pride back to the Arsenal. I do see Wenger as the primary problem currently, he picks the team, he trains them, he sets the tactics.

But the wider, bigger picture is Kroenke's track record with his other franchises. They have all dropped off and become mediocre, just drifting along while he raking in the money. Luckily there's no sign of that here...

They aren’t competitive no but there’s no relegation in American sports

So clubs like that will know come what may they will still get the revenue from playing other bigger franchises

Relegation is not a factor Kroenke has ever had to consider. End of the day no competitive is not a red line for him, but anything that impacts upon what the club’s value is.

And it’s much easier to adversely effect that value when there’s actually consequences for being too shit

But it doesn’t matter anyway being 6th is not good enough for the fans even if it is for Kroenke. Someone like that is untouchable, he’s unaffected by the criticism because he’s maybe here two weeks every year.

Wenger is the target

[Letters]

You kept saying we wouldn't finish below spurs though and look what happened. I specifically remember a number of times you said 'everyone keeps saying we'll finish below them, but it hasn't happened yet'. Well in the end it did

Yes. After 10 years of people saying it, it finally happened. In a game where fortunes change and things fluctuate if you keep saying the same thing then eventually the chances are you will be correct.
But the same people were saying we would end up in mid-table years ago and that hasn't happened yet so don't pat yourself or them on the back too hard.
The same people said we were in terminal decline, I see it more of a stagnation. The last four seasons we have finished in 4th then 3rd then 2nd then 5th. I wouldn't say there is a clear trend there.
Will we end up in mid-table? It does seem we have become more of a "top 6" club than a "top 4" one. I doubt we will sink much lower for the reasons HCZ has outlined but we will see.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Do you know, I don't buy the Wenger was once great and isn't anymore, that's not what's happened at all. Once upon a time he was hungry, inherited a team with a very disciplined mindset and was able to add attacking ingredients to it and cherry pick some of the best talents from a country he knew inside out for next to nothing.

Then the problems started. Whilst the mindeset was inherited by some of the players (hence the invincibles) he proceeded to dismantle all the important elements, our experienced top quality players were sold off for next to nothing very quickly, importantly all the leaders of the team, the youngsters had noone to learn from and pick up those winning habits from. He also decided to change the style of football to some mini Barcelona style and became obssessed with it, he decided to dispense of all the physical aspects of our game, thought he could build some all conquering team with kids he'd gone all round the world recruiting (whilst spending huge amounts) and then decided to get rid of all the aspects that made him successful in the first place.

Now it can't allbe reversed but do you know what, he could have analysed the situation (doesn't take a rocket scientist) and decided it's not working, lets go back and look at my winning sides and see what we can tweak. But no he's refused to change anything (that's not an inability to btw, that's just sheer pig-headedness and a need to prove everyone else wrong, even when the answer is staring him in the face) and has continued to make very odd decisions, whilst accepting money is more important than success and thrashings are part of the course.

Some people (Letters) make out like he's been left behind and just doesn't have the tools, it doesn't take tools it takes common sense, he hasn't been left behind he's refused to change and that is nonsensical, much of what is happening could be avoided and if a normal guy with common sense who was willing to make changes was in charge it probably would, sadly he's not like that at all, he prefers to be profitable and to try and prove people right, even if he never does, in his head he thinks he is.

Like with everything else in life bit more complicated than that

Did Wenger have the benefit of being able to utilise the leadership of players like Adams and how that trickled down to the players he brought in? For sure.

But if you read Adams book, it was Wenger and his new methods that kept him in the game that much longer. Muscle exercises that could combat fatigue allow more durability and even added to defensive displays (being able to jump higher)

What’s changed in football terms, is that current managers are largely just politicians. They work on coaching methods, number crunching, tactical game plans etc that are decided on collectively by large and structured coaching teams. But they are the figurehead of those decisions, they are the voice at press conferences and the figure on the bench.
The same way politicians are mouthpieces for decisions worked out between them and civil servants and special advisors

Wenger is the one who thinks he can do it all on his own

[Cripps]

Do you know, I don't buy the Wenger was once great and isn't anymore, that's not what's happened at all. Once upon a time he was hungry, inherited a team with a very disciplined mindset and was able to add attacking ingredients to it and cherry pick some of the best talents from a country he knew inside out for next to nothing.

Then the problems started. Whilst the mindeset was inherited by some of the players (hence the invincibles) he proceeded to dismantle all the important elements, our experienced top quality players were sold off for next to nothing very quickly, importantly all the leaders of the team, the youngsters had noone to learn from and pick up those winning habits from. He also decided to change the style of football to some mini Barcelona style and became obssessed with it, he decided to dispense of all the physical aspects of our game, thought he could build some all conquering team with kids he'd gone all round the world recruiting (whilst spending huge amounts) and then decided to get rid of all the aspects that made him successful in the first place.

Now it can't allbe reversed but do you know what, he could have analysed the situation (doesn't take a rocket scientist) and decided it's not working, lets go back and look at my winning sides and see what we can tweak. But no he's refused to change anything (that's not an inability to btw, that's just sheer pig-headedness and a need to prove everyone else wrong, even when the answer is staring him in the face) and has continued to make very odd decisions, whilst accepting money is more important than success and thrashings are part of the course.

Some people (Letters) make out like he's been left behind and just doesn't have the tools, it doesn't take tools it takes common sense, he hasn't been left behind he's refused to change and that is nonsensical, much of what is happening could be avoided and if a normal guy with common sense who was willing to make changes was in charge it probably would, sadly he's not like that at all, he prefers to be profitable and to try and prove people right, even if he never does, in his head he thinks he is.

Zim

Fought and battled over the years in the gladitorial arena that is GW he managed to stand tall and strong and came out the ultimate winner

"What we do in life echoes in eternity"

MaxZIMus

[Letters]

Think the issue is there's been a gradual decline and it doesn't look like stopping.

I'm not sure that's true. Our points total since 2007/8 has been:
72,75,68,70,73,79,75,71,75

There's no clear trend there. It's been stagnation, not decline.

But the wider, bigger picture is Kroenke's track record with his other franchises. They have all dropped off and become mediocre, just drifting along while he raking in the money. Luckily there's no sign of that here...

That is a bigger concern, admittedly. And this is why "Wenger Out" is not a silver bullet. Because if Kronke replaces him with someone who will just keep us bumbling along then that won't necessarily improve the situation.
Kronke Out AND Wenger Out (And Letters Out, obvs)

[Cripps]

I'm not sure that's true. Our points total since 2007/8 has been:
72,75,68,70,73,79,75,71,75

There's no clear trend there. It's been stagnation, not decline.



That is a bigger concern, admittedly. And this is why "Wenger Out" is not a silver bullet. Because if Kronke replaces him with someone who will just keep us bumbling along then that won't necessarily improve the situation.
Kronke Out AND Wenger Out (And Letters Out, obvs)

Using stats to try and distort the picture

Reality is very different

[Cripps]

Yes. After 10 years of people saying it, it finally happened. In a game where fortunes change and things fluctuate if you keep saying the same thing then eventually the chances are you will be correct.
But the same people were saying we would end up in mid-table years ago and that hasn't happened yet so don't pat yourself or them on the back too hard.
The same people said we were in terminal decline, I see it more of a stagnation. The last four seasons we have finished in 4th then 3rd then 2nd then 5th. I wouldn't say there is a clear trend there.
Will we end up in mid-table? It does seem we have become more of a "top 6" club than a "top 4" one. I doubt we will sink much lower for the reasons HCZ has outlined but we will see.

Give wenger another 3-4 contracts and I'm sure he'll fulfil that too

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

For the third time I’m saying this, with the exception of deciding who wins the internet these discussions as fascinating as they are (and I actually don’t mean that sarcastically oddly enough) are pointless.

At the end of the day changing our current trajectory isn’t dependent on who is right or wrong about how fucking deep we sink but the agreement that we don’t want to sink at all

Changing things isn’t dependent on consensus of when Wenger became a cunt, it’s just a consensus that he has to go.

[Letters]

Reality is very different

Is it? Please elaborate. How do those statistics distort the true picture?

[Cripps]

Is it? Please elaborate. How do those statistics distort the true picture?

You're saying there's been no gradual decline. Only an absolute weapon would think that.