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Thread: Summer transfer joy and happiness

  1. #1591
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    Think Walcott got a ton of assists in the RvP golden season but let's avoid the Walcott debate. The numbers PG tips just provided does make for stark and interesting reading though. Scoring goals is not easy no matter the opposition, lest we forget the horrendous away record last season.

    I don't want to be sitting there when Aubameyang is injured and Lacazette is having an off day, thinking, where the hell is a goal going to come from. But we will be in that position a number of times before Christmas at the rate we are going.

    I'm so desperate for us to sign a tricky winger, I find myself warming to the idea of Zaha....though Palace would want a nonsensical fee and he is yet another player who's end product is sketchy even if his value to Palace isn't.

    There's only value in bringing a winger of high quality or a pointedly useful and effective skill set otherwise, we aren't getting anything Perez and Welbeck couldn't provide.

  2. #1592
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    Quote Originally Posted by Power n Glory View Post
    But I asked you a specific question about his goal scoring record and to find players with a better record. I already know what you think of his ability. Now you're switching goal posts.

    As the original point Blink was making, it's not that easy to find goal scoring wingers, even those with much more talent than Walcott, they're not banging in that many goals yet you criticise Walcott's goal record. It's silly and shows ignorance and unnecessary bias.

    Walcott lacked the creativity of most wingers but he's up there in terms of his goal record. That's why he's an enigma. I've always felt he'd be appreciated more if developed as a striker because you can get away with a strikers that are just goal machines and poachers. They're appreciated more in the game.
    Fair enough, but just focussing on that is wrong IMO, his goals were rarely crucial to us, he wasn't a matchwinner.

    Most wingers don't focus on goals, that was his only focus, he had no skill, couldn't beat his man, couldn't cross all he could do was run, on that basis he's bound to have a better record than most, because mostly wingers are there to create.

    The point with him is how many times did his goals win us key games and how many times were they against average opposition, in addition how often were they when he came on against tired defences, doesn't really take much skill to perform at your best when the opposition is tired and when you've got pace.

    IMO he just never had any footballing intelligence, ultimately all he had was pace. But despite his goals, I just never really saw what he brought to the team, yes he scored a few goals but that most of the time he was anonymous, I think he basically was overhyped and could never deliver on that hype because he never had the talent.

    I'd never want us to sign another player like him, too one dimensional and unlike someone like Overmars, couldn't deliver when it mattered.
    Last edited by Özim; 01-08-2018 at 01:16 PM.

  3. #1593
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blink 1nce Quince 2wice View Post
    Think Walcott got a ton of assists in the RvP golden season but let's avoid the Walcott debate. The numbers PG tips just provided does make for stark and interesting reading though. Scoring goals is not easy no matter the opposition, lest we forget the horrendous away record last season.

    I don't want to be sitting there when Aubameyang is injured and Lacazette is having an off day, thinking, where the hell is a goal going to come from. But we will be in that position a number of times before Christmas at the rate we are going.

    I'm so desperate for us to sign a tricky winger, I find myself warming to the idea of Zaha....though Palace would want a nonsensical fee and he is yet another player who's end product is sketchy even if his value to Palace isn't.

    There's only value in bringing a winger of high quality or a pointedly useful and effective skill set otherwise, we aren't getting anything Perez and Welbeck couldn't provide.
    Dragging up Theo’s assist stats would be a mission but I remember those years.

    It’s not easy to score goals, especially when you’re playing a wide position. That’s probably my main concern this season for Aubameyang or Lacazette if they’re pushed to a wide position. Agree on the type of winger we need to bring in as well. If they don’t fit the profile, we might as well just stick with what we have and hope someone there makes their mark.

  4. #1594
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    Quote Originally Posted by Özim View Post
    Fair enough, but just focussing on that is wrong IMO, his goals were rarely crucial to us, he wasn't a matchwinner.

    Most wingers don't focus on goals, that was his only focus, he had no skill, couldn't beat his man, couldn't cross all he could do was run, on that basis he's bound to have a better record than most, because mostly wingers are there to create.

    The point with him is how many times did his goals win us key games and how many times were they against average opposition, in addition how often were they when he came on against tired defences, doesn't really take much skill to perform at your best when the opposition is tired and when you've got pace.

    IMO he just never had any footballing intelligence, ultimately all he had was pace, a decent striker needs m. But despite his goals, I just never really saw what he brought to the team, yes he scored a few goals but that most of the time he was anonymous, I think he basically was overhyped and could never deliver on that hype because he never had the talent.

    I'd never want us to sign another player like him, too one dimensional and unlike someone like Overmars, couldn't deliver when it mattered.
    Do some of your own research. We all have access to the Internet!

    It's a huge waste of time for me to look this up and provide the facts for you to then switch goal posts.


    Start here.
    https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/theo.../spieler/33713

    As you can see, the top 5 clubs he's scored most goals against is Newcastle, Chelsea, West Ham, Spurs, Man City!

    It’s always a problem for me when people just talk reckless without facts. Back up you’re argument with facts because most of what you’ve said can be measured and isn’t simply subjective.

  5. #1595
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    Quote Originally Posted by Power n Glory View Post
    Do some of your own research. We all have access to the Internet!

    It's a huge waste of time for me to look this up and provide the facts for you to then switch goal posts.


    Start here.
    https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/theo.../spieler/33713

    As you can see, the top 5 clubs he's scored most goals against is Newcastle, Chelsea, West Ham, Spurs, Man City!

    It’s always a problem for me when people just talk reckless without facts. Back up you’re argument with facts because most of what you’ve said can be measured and isn’t simply subjective.
    I actually looked and couldn't find exactly when and who he scored against, with all goals you need context, if they come as the 3rd or 4th goal in a match you're winning or in a game you've lost they're rarely crucial.

    What I couldn't find is which games he scored in and when.

    Ignoring that the past though, we just need to look at how he's done at Everton and the truth is not very well.
    Last edited by Özim; 01-08-2018 at 01:37 PM.

  6. #1596
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    Quote Originally Posted by Özim View Post
    I actually looked and couldn't find exactly when and who he scored against, with all goals you need context, if they come as the 3rd or 4th goal in a match you're winning or in a game you've lost they're rarely crucial.

    What I couldn't find is which games he scored in and when.
    All the information is on the site I provided.

    Again, switching goal posts. Look it up. Compare it to other wingers and then ask yourself why the winger you've mentioned haven't got impressive goal records since it's so easy?

  7. #1597
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    Quote Originally Posted by Power n Glory View Post
    All the information is on the site I provided.

    Again, switching goal posts. Look it up. Compare it to other wingers and then ask yourself why the winger you've mentioned haven't got impressive goal records since it's so easy?
    Actually I can't find it, it doesn't show the results in the games and when he scored the goals and in which games, it just gives you totals.

    But I found something that illustrates what I mean, in his best season have a look at who he scored against, the results and when in the season (i.e after we were out of everything or not), from what I can see it shows his goals weren't generally against the big teams or in tight games or at key stages of the season.

    He scored in a lot of big wins, defeats and in games that didn't matter and only ocasionally in games that did.

    https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/theo.../0?saison=2012

    As I said he's one not one of those players you can rely on to win you matches.

    As for your comment about wingers, he was never a conventional winger and never played like one, to compare him with someone intent on creating wouldn't really be fair. I've seen him with my own eyes and that tells you more than most things, on that basis he just wasn't up to par and I'd have happily replaced him in a flash.
    Last edited by Özim; 01-08-2018 at 01:51 PM.

  8. #1598
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    Jesus Christ, Zim. That last paragraph has to sum up the tap dancing and shifting goal posts to justify a bullshit argument. So now it's unfair to compare him to other wingers? OK.

  9. #1599
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    What I'm basically saying is he was rubbish up front and rubbish on the wing, the goals he scored don't change that, his performances were still average overall and I'm glad we got rid and made him someoene elses problem.

    I want us to get a good winger, nothing like Walcott as he was wasn't good enough, comparing him to the best wingers around is pointless as IMO they're superior.

  10. #1600
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    Quote Originally Posted by I am invisible View Post
    Yes, of course. I was including Ramsey as a general type of player who Özil needs around him - basically players who put in the energy that he often doesn't, and who offer movement and goal-threat, whether that's in front of him (strikers), from the side (wingers / wide atatckers), or on the overlap (attacking midfielders). The general point was that he's a play-maker in the attacking third, so his role is always going to be contingent on having other players around him to actually provide for (in the same way that forwards like Auba and Laca will always be largely reliant on the service they receive to do their jobs) - it would be nice if he could chip in with a few more goals himself, and get involved with the high-press, but the need for a supporting cast kind of goes with the territory with that type of player. If Ramsey has been getting in his way, then adapt their positions slightly so they don't keep ending up on top of each other in the centre.

    I kind of take the opposite view with Ramsey: I think we absolutely should be enabling his gung-ho approach... just not in an area of the side that is discipline-critical (i.e. as one half of a two-man base in midfield). I A lot of my problems with him stem from how I view him as a player: as one half of a CM pairing (as we so often play) he's a liability, as he constantly disappears up front, leaving his partner exposed; but viewed as an attacker who frequently drops back as a bonus man in midfield... I think that could be an asset? Finding a way to effectively utilise that marauding style of his is what marks him out as something a bit different (and potentially special) in my eyes, and is the only thing that makes him worth all the effort we're putting in to trying to keep him - if what we're looking for is a more disciplined CM to play at the base of midfield, who can win the ball back and distribute it well, then I kind of feel that we have several better options for that already in AMN, Guendouzi and maybe even Elneny (all of whom would require less coaching for the role, and would cost considerably less in wages). I'd rather just cash in on Ramsey now and reinvest in other areas than spend a lot of time trying to mould him into that kind of midfielder.

    You're point about Xhaka I totally agree with - for me, Guendouzi already looks like he'd give us that long-range distribution from the back, with a lot of extras besides, so if it were up to me then I'd be very tempted to chuck him in straightaway alongside Torreira (or AMN, although I haven't quite decided what kind of midfielder I think he is yet). However, what I'd like to see happen and what I think the club will do are two completely different things, and unfortunately I just don't see Xhaka, Ramsey (if he stays) or Özil being dropped - at least not to start with), anyway. Pragmatism is likely to be our best option to begin with: if we're going to be starting the season with these players, then we need to find a way to make them work together, and that's probably going to mean fitting all the supporting players in too. As I said, hopefully the buck stops with a DM (Torreira), where the supporting cast is concerned.
    Agree with most of that. Ozil is definitely capable of more and if he was more a goal threat, maybe that would help curb Ramsey's urge to get forward so much and just look to get him the ball in the most dangerous areas whilst making the occasional runs forward.

    I thought Emery had plans of playing a 4-3-3 with Ozil going wide and three CM's in the middle. Maybe Xhaka, Ramsey and Torreira as the trio. But it looks like he's playing Ozil as a 10. I have no idea how that will work. Even with Torrira as DM, I think we'll be left badly exposed with Unai doesn't tell Ramsey to cut out the roaming forward and focus on distribution and pressing in the middle. Same goes for Ozil as a 10. He has to contribute more on both defence and attack. The guy has the feet and ball control to unlock a defence with his dribbling and wish he'd take more risks in possession and not play the percentages.

    If Unai can't coach some discipline into these guys and get them to be more productive, he has to drop them. If he falls into the same trap as Wenger, we'll be in trouble. I don't want to see Ozil or Ramsey shifted on to the wing because they weaken our midfield only to discover they weaken our wing play as well. Same trap Wenger would fall into with certain players and I potentially see that happening if Emery isn't brave enough to drop unperforming players. I also think we have to be careful not to compound the problem by dumping more clay onto an already messy pile by dipping into the transfer market to buy players to compliment underperforming players with obvious weaknesses. Wenger made that mistake with Giroud when we bought Ozil. They were incompatible but Giroud was undroppable and then we bought another player that was undroppable. It could have worked if Ozil was more of a goal threat and made runs into the box. Giroud would have been great with the link up play. But on the other hand, Ozil needs a player that is faster and more of goal threat than Giroud.

    Either way, a lot to look forwards to this season and we'll see how Emery addresses these the problems.

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