Palace vs Arsenal - August 21st KO: 20:00

[HCZ_Reborn]

I pretty much answered that. I watched the City away game last year, saw the second half of the Community Shield.

So if your frame of reference is putting out a team to neutralise Man City which we did in the community shield although with the caveat of blunting our own attack, you might be forgiven for thinking things are ok.

Let me assure you that things in the two games since then were blind faith in a system that is failing to get the best out of our attacking players and at home is leaving us vulnerable to conceding because of how high we play.

Everything that we got right last season is being nullified by a galaxy brained coach. You say to me it’s only a couple of games in be patient. You’ve got kids right? Would you say to your child if they were forcing a star shaped object into a square hole and then getting frustrated because it won’t fit “just be patient” or would you as a caring father who wants the best for their child point out that it’s not meant to go there?

So yes it’s the double whammy of misappropriation of more than generous transfer funds but it’s also the utter waste of talent we do have in a system that knowing Arteta like we all do, know he will religiously stick to.

[Letters]

I don't actually know if things are OK. Nor do you. As I keep saying, it's early season, new players are still finding their feet.
Two wins doesn't mean everything is brilliant, two losses wouldn't mean IT'S THE END OF DAYS (although these days I don't know if anyone can start like that and be credible contenders).
But, it's August. Let's see where we are at Christmas.
Your confidence in your opinions being very correct is undermined by your equal confidence that we would lose the first game and wouldn't win the second.
And your analogy about a child is nonsensical. I know better than a 6 year old boy, you do not know better than a PL manager who had a successful playing career and whose team massively exceeded your expectations last season.

Again, it's perfectly valid to have concerns, I share the one about the lack of a proper striker. It's the level of whining I'm rolling my eyes out loud about, given that we're one of only 3 teams to have won both of our first two games.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I don't actually know if things are OK. Nor do you. As I keep saying, it's early season, new players are still finding their feet.
Two wins doesn't mean everything is brilliant, two losses wouldn't mean IT'S THE END OF DAYS (although these days I don't know if anyone can start like that and be credible contenders).
But, it's August. Let's see where we are at Christmas.
Your confidence in your opinions being very correct is undermined by your equal confidence that we would lose the first game and wouldn't win the second.
And your analogy about a child is nonsensical. I know better than a 6 year old boy, you do not know better than a PL manager who had a successful playing career and whose team massively exceeded your expectations last season.

Again, it's perfectly valid to have concerns, I share the one about the lack of a proper striker. It's the level of whining I'm rolling my eyes out loud about, given that we're one of only 3 teams to have won both of our first two games.

So essentially your argument comes down to an appeal to Authority, you know…I think NQ is a crank as much as he thinks I’m a gutless, pliant brainwashed serf but he does have a bit of a point when it comes to you. You do have a bit of a “ours is not to reason why” mentality about you.


So I’m countering your appeal to authority with Empiricism. Arteta has a history of Galaxy brained tactical changes and they invariably don’t work, either because like with the star in the square hole it’s not meant to go there or for all his supposed tactical brilliance he hasn’t explained what he wants from his players.

This is what is happening now. Havertz as I say is a technically gifted player, but he’s not a central midfielder. Now I can’t say Apriori that having him in that position will definitely mean that Martinelli becomes more isolated but a) that’s what’s happened so far and b) there’s good reason to believe that will continue to happen.

Now Havertz himself said his preferred position is central midfield, but in fairness so did Ainsley Maitland Niles. If you’re 18 your skill set can be adapted at 24 less so. Yes you can tweak a players primary position like Wenger did with Henry but changing someone from the wing to a centre forward is less of a drastic change than winger/striker to central midfielder.


I can’t say for definite what will happen, but being wrong about the two results hasn’t in anyway made me think more positively because at home to Forest we should have lost…our defence was so open that all they needed was a smidge of ambition and they’d have taken all three points. Not because they were better than us, we absolutely were the better team in terms of overall play, but a phalanx of spurned half chances and being so far forward that it took just one run to put them in on goal for 2-1, not to mention the other two chances they spurned.

Our overall play was better than that of Palace, they were utterly toothless but we created nothing and yet laud Declan Rice for being the best player on the park when he had nothing to do. Nuts.


Being despairing when the one thing I got unequivocal joy from last season is taken away because Reasons (our attacking play and goal scoring)…hardly seems illogical. Most Arsenal fans admittedly won’t be as downhearted as me, but most will tell you (as those on here have) that the system doesn’t work, square pegs in round holes a plenty.

But honestly I’d much prefer you actually watch games and then tell me you think I’m wrong or being over the top. Because at the moment all you have is…well we won that’s all that matters. Well winning is copacetic, people don’t question things when they’re winning and then they scratch their heads and say “I don’t get what happened” when it falls apart.

So tell you what, watch a game and then give me your opinion. Otherwise how are you any different from NQ who just knows

[HCZ_Reborn]

And to anticipate your next point, that my opinion is skewed by my dislike of him personally. I’d say it’s incidental, if I was happy with the way Arteta was doing things as a coach I wouldn’t care what kind of person he was, so in fact it’s my disapproval of him as a coach which exaggerates my view of him as a human being.

There’s worse people out there than Arteta, Guardiola is a total sack of shit…absolutely diabolical human being. At least Jose Felix Mourinho doesn’t pretend not to be a cunt. And when Mourinho isn’t being driven to act like a bell end by his monstrous narcissism you could probably have a laugh and a joke with him. Guardiola there’s just nothing other than sullen resentment, being off hand to the point of being anhedonic. Klopp at least smiles and laughs even if you think the guy drinks his own piss.
I’d say it’s better to have no personality like Arteta than a horrendous one. Imagine the poor cow married to Guardiola, just broken from years of passive aggressive put downs and patronising back handed compliments. The players like him because he brings success, but they can’t like him as a person…but because of PR they aren’t going to say…”case in point, I was walking around in Manchester town centre I saw pep coming towards me, so I crossed the road to go the other way before he saw me”

[Letters]

So essentially your argument comes down to an appeal to Authority, you know…I think NQ is a crank as much as he thinks I’m a gutless, pliant brainwashed serf but he does have a bit of a point when it comes to you. You do have a bit of a “ours is not to reason why” mentality about you.

Now you're being all NQ in your black and white thinking. This has always been my frustration with this place, the extremes of opinion. I miss nuance, and I know you're capable of it.
How hard is it to understand that "Arteta knows best" and "Arteta out" aren't the only two options here? Me thinking that your criticism of Arteta is over the top doesn't mean that I think no criticism is allowed or valid.
I do in general think football managers know a bit more about things that keyboard warriors, but that doesn't mean they're beyond reproach.
I've literally in this thread agreed with some of your concerns, and the buck stops with Arteta if those concerns cost us this season.

So I’m countering your appeal to authority with Empiricism. Arteta has a history of Galaxy brained tactical changes and they invariably don’t work, either because like with the star in the square hole it’s not meant to go there or for all his supposed tactical brilliance he hasn’t explained what he wants from his players.

That isn't empirical, that's all just your opinion. By what empirical measure are you claiming they don't work? Empiricism is looking at results, or stats. Last year we got what was is, our third highest ever PL points total? Watching All or Nothing the players seem to buy in to what he's doing. His pre-match talks are bizarre (apart from getting the photographer in ahead of the NLD, loved that), but it seems to be getting results. But for a ludicrous run from City last year we could have been champions in a season when most of us were hoping for Top 4 and if memory serves you thought we wouldn't achieve that.

I can’t say for definite what will happen, but being wrong about the two results hasn’t in anyway made me think more positively because at home to Forest we should have lost

Should we, though? 78% permission. Ramsdale made 1 save to their 5. We were 2 goals up in about 30 minutes. The stats seem to show we were pretty dominant
http://www.soccer-blogger.com/2023/0...c-match-stats/
By no metric should we have lost it, although the goal we conceded and resulting nervy end when we should have put it to bed in the first half were disappointing.
I agreed with MO's comment after that game that it was an indication of why we won't win the league. You're not going to keep getting away with stuff like that.
Which is the main issue I see, the lack of a real out and out striker. We actually scored a lot of goals last year without one, but in tight games you do wonder where a goal might come from. Saka or Odegaard

But honestly I’d much prefer you actually watch games and then tell me you think I’m wrong or being over the top.

I think it's fair to ask I watch games. But I had a season ticket from 1991 to around 2012, and I witnessed a load of people who I think are like you. People who would moan no matter what. And if that's why they go to football, for a bit of catharsis, then OK I guess. I guess they have the right, and I have the right to tell them they're being ridiculous. I remember one bloke who sat near us in the old North Bank, I believe he was an ex-pro. He once shouted at Henry for being "lazy" because he didn't run for a ball. This was right at the end of the season where Henry had scored 30 league goals. Some people are never happy, I sense you are one of those.

Because at the moment all you have is…well we won that’s all that matters.

No, it isn't all that matters. But it's not irrelevant either.

So tell you what, watch a game and then give me your opinion. Otherwise how are you any different from NQ who just knows

I'm literally saying in this thread that I DON'T know. You are the one expressing certainty about that, just as you did before the first two games.
I don't know how this season will turn out. I am worried about the lack of a "Kane", and some of the grumbling about the tactics concern me a bit. But so far, by the only metric that really matters in football, it is working. We've won the games. Obviously if you're right then we won't keep doing that, there are obviously bigger tests to come. But as I keep saying, you only really get a sense for how the season is shaping up around Christmas.
Also, even if we had been terrible in these two games and got lucky to win - which isn't what I think happened, but let's say. You understand that teams don't play at a uniform level, right? We're 2 games in, maybe we've not really hit our stride yet. But, for now, I'm content enough with the results and I find the level of social media whining baffling. Not that there is any grumbling, it's the level of it.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Now you're being all NQ in your black and white thinking. This has always been my frustration with this place, the extremes of opinion. I miss nuance, and I know you're capable of it.
How hard is it to understand that "Arteta knows best" and "Arteta out" aren't the only two options here? Me thinking that your criticism of Arteta is over the top doesn't mean that I think no criticism is allowed or valid.
I do in general think football managers know a bit more about things that keyboard warriors, but that doesn't mean they're beyond reproach.
I've literally in this thread agreed with some of your concerns, and the buck stops with Arteta if those concerns cost us this season.


That isn't empirical, that's all just your opinion. By what empirical measure are you claiming they don't work? Empiricism is looking at results, or stats. Last year we got what was is, our third highest ever PL points total? Watching All or Nothing the players seem to buy in to what he's doing. His pre-match talks are bizarre (apart from getting the photographer in ahead of the NLD, loved that), but it seems to be getting results. But for a ludicrous run from City last year we could have been champions in a season when most of us were hoping for Top 4 and if memory serves you thought we wouldn't achieve that.


Should we, though? 78% permission. Ramsdale made 1 save to their 5. We were 2 goals up in about 30 minutes. The stats seem to show we were pretty dominant
http://www.soccer-blogger.com/2023/0...c-match-stats/
By no metric should we have lost it, although the goal we conceded and resulting nervy end when we should have put it to bed in the first half were disappointing.
I agreed with MO's comment after that game that it was an indication of why we won't win the league. You're not going to keep getting away with stuff like that.
Which is the main issue I see, the lack of a real out and out striker. We actually scored a lot of goals last year without one, but in tight games you do wonder where a goal might come from. Saka or Odegaard


I think it's fair to ask I watch games. But I had a season ticket from 1991 to around 2012, and I witnessed a load of people who I think are like you. People who would moan no matter what. And if that's why they go to football, for a bit of catharsis, then OK I guess. I guess they have the right, and I have the right to tell them they're being ridiculous. I remember one bloke who sat near us in the old North Bank, I believe he was an ex-pro. He once shouted at Henry for being "lazy" because he didn't run for a ball. This was right at the end of the season where Henry had scored 30 league goals. Some people are never happy, I sense you are one of those.



No, it isn't all that matters. But it's not irrelevant either.



I'm literally saying in this thread that I DON'T know. You are the one expressing certainty about that, just as you did before the first two games.
I don't know how this season will turn out. I am worried about the lack of a "Kane", and some of the grumbling about the tactics concern me a bit. But so far, by the only metric that really matters in football, it is working. We've won the games. Obviously if you're right then we won't keep doing that, there are obviously bigger tests to come. But as I keep saying, you only really get a sense for how the season is shaping up around Christmas.
Also, even if we had been terrible in these two games and got lucky to win - which isn't what I think happened, but let's say. You understand that teams don't play at a uniform level, right? We're 2 games in, maybe we've not really hit our stride yet. But, for now, I'm content enough with the results and I find the level of social media whining baffling. Not that there is any grumbling, it's the level of it.

You may think by taking each point in my argument that you’re being analytical but in fact you’re straw manning.

Where have I stated that it’s a binary between being unquestioningly positive about Arteta and being Arteta out. I’m responding to the point where you say “he knows more about this than you” which absolutely was in the absence of your own evidence an appeal to authority. Of course Arteta knows more about football and tactics than me, but that does not preclude him acting irrationally or stupidly.

Arteta has been with us for three years, there are myriad examples of him changing tactics in a way that left us looking completely lost. One that springs to mind was a home game against Liverpool just over two years ago, it wasn’t even the lineup that was the issue, there seemed to be this contain and counter tactical plan that the players seemed utterly confused by and unable to fathom. The end result was a Liverpool aside that wasn’t exactly in great form themselves were able to turn us over totally, even Arteta himself admitted he’d got it totally and absolutely wrong.

Another one I highlight was a game against Brighton, Brighton hadnt won in almost ten games, yet we play Xhaka at left back and Odegaard in the no8 role which he absolutely can’t play to the point where the two centre backs white and Gabriel were nervous about passing forward and Trossard and Mwepu just beasted us down the flanks. I was at that game, and I’d never in my memory of going to games had seen us look so unable to impose ourselves against a mid table team. Here Arteta didn’t take responsibility, he just screams at the players for their lack of commitment.


These are not exhaustive, they are paradigm cases

If you feel uneasy at the strength of my certainty that is more on you, as I said to someone the other day. I was in favour of Arteta becoming coach and by August 2020 I was more than happy with the job he was doing. I could see there were issues in the side, but in many respects that was as much about personnel so I gave him benefit of the doubt


I know, you know, everyone on here knows that he should not have survived the run of games between October 2020 and December 2020, even at the worst days of Terry Neil or Don Howe we hadn’t been that feeble. And that on its own is difficult to forgive and overlook. That was almost solely attributable to the way he chose to set up, yes Partey picked up injuries but made not a fuck of difference whether he played or not. Despite having Auba and Lacazette, totally toothless up front.
Our best player that season was arguably Granit Xhaka which should tell you everything.


So my opinion is I’ve seen this calamity before. As I’ve said do I know as a certainty it will happen? No, based on what I’ve seen do I think it will happen? Yes. I don’t like a lot of the players that play for Arsenal they are either surplus to requirements or just not that good, but with 600million spent we are going to look better than we did a few years ago. That might cushion the disaster I can see incoming as a result of this man’s hubris, but I still think it will be depressing…in my mind it already is. Like watching a car crash in slow motion.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Let me break it down to you as simply as I can, for all the disastrous way last season ended…there wasn’t much needed to improve the team

We needed two midfielders and a striker ( and of course a big Dustbin to remove players like Zinchenko, Holding, Vieira, Nketiah). The first midfielder we bought in should have been Caicedo simply because he perfectly complements the way we should be playing with the rest of the players we have, the second should have been an upgrade on Xhaka and the third should have been a striker. Wouldn’t have ended up spending any more money and we’d have a far more balanced side


When City haven’t properly replaced Gundogan and Mahrez it presented us with an opportunity, but I should have known better. Last season we needed a midfielder and genius buys a luxury player in Vieira and thirty million on a left back that can’t play left back.

When you’ve spent 600 million pounds and keep loading up your team with full backs and you struggle to beat Forest and Palace, it’s legitimate cause to feel frustrated and pessimistic.

[Letters]

Where have I stated that it’s a binary between being unquestioningly positive about Arteta and being Arteta out.

You implied it by accusing me of appeal to authority and "ours is not to reason why". That is you strawmanning me.

I’m responding to the point where you say “he knows more about this than you”

Well, he does. Clearly. But that doesn't mean he can't be questioned or criticised.

These are not exhaustive, they are paradigm cases

And from your descriptions they're reasonable ones. See above about how it's reasonable to question or criticise a manager.

If you feel uneasy at the strength of my certainty that is more on you

Of course, but given your certainty about the first two games and your pre-season prediction last season I wonder why you continue to be so confident. You might be right of course, but I'd suggest two games in is not enough evidence to be sure how this season will pan out. I personally would be surprised if we end up as champions, I'm pretty confident we'll do no worse than third but it's impossible to be definitive after two games.

everyone on here knows that he should not have survived the run of games between October 2020 and December 2020

I had to remind myself but ouch, yes that was awful and I think I'd briefly hopped on the Arteta Out bandwagon. The win vs Chelsea on Boxing Day probably saved him[/QUOTE]

I'm interested to know what this impending disaster will look like. What in your mind would be acceptable this season? It's surely not the title or bust for you, is it?

[Mac76]

Martinelli was out of the Arsenal team for well over a year, there was some claim of injury but it wasn’t anywhere near as serious as to keep him out for that long. Martinelli forced himself into contention…

Tierney went home to cry and cuddle up on the sofa with his boyfriend the club chef. Now you could be saying to me that Arteta took against Tierney because he’s homophobic or he saw a player that other than a pace merchant was limited and preferred to spend his time binge watching Orange is the New Black rather than fight for contention.

Like Martinelli did

utter tosh - Tierney no doubt turns up, trains hard, doess his best when given a few minutes on the pitch completely out of position - Arteta doesn't like traditional full backs, it's obvious, he's not playing one on either flank

seriously why is no-one else apparently allowed to criticise Arteta but you - who gave you the monopoly on it?

[HCZ_Reborn]

utter tosh - Tierney no doubt turns up, trains hard, doess his best when given a few minutes on the pitch completely out of position - Arteta doesn't like traditional full backs, it's obvious, he's not playing one on either flank

seriously why is no-one else apparently allowed to criticise Arteta but you - who gave you the monopoly on it?

Why do you put the word seriously as a prefix when your question isn’t in anyway serious. It’s not even a question, it’s just a sulk shaped like a question.

You talk about Arteta needing validation, but do you need validation so much that you need to flounce and throw a strop when someone disagrees with you.

Do I think Arteta has treated Tierney unfairly? Yes but do I think that if Tierney had anything about him he would have done more to force himself into Arteta’s plans also yes. If he had I don’t think Arteta would have bought Zinchenko. We are it seems more than prepared to let him go, and yet no one has come in for him…maybe because he’s injury prone and when he has featured in the last season he didn’t exactly make much of an impact.


Tierney excelled playing in a team of sub par and disinterested players. You don’t agree with me? You don’t have to. You’ve registered your disagreement, move on. Stop acting like I’ve slighted you