Wenger Referendum II - And this time it's personal

[Kano]

It's hard to separate the lack of focus at the start of the season and drop off once top four was sorted. There is always an 'excuse' - injuries, summer tournament, new signings - the likes of which didn't affect the champions, despite them changing the crucial spine of their team. Comparing our end of season with Chelsea is ludicrous given they have nothing more to achieve and can lose nothing. We had second to aim for and third is there still to be lost. Losing momentum as we have is a dangerous game because if we mess up the next two games we'll end up lower. Likely? Probably not but just like starting a game poorly, it becomes a struggle to turn around lack of momentum.

Whether fans like Letters are happy with third is irrelevant because the players objectives and those from above are what drives the club. A lot of them have said they want to finish second, as much also saying beating a top four team is a massive boost. It's obvious finishing above City would boost the squad - if beating them in a single game is seen as positive, then it stands to reason that finishing higher than most of them has a similar effect. I don't see how a convincing argument can be raised suggesting otherwise. City have been classed as having a bad season, yet they would've scored more and still finished above us. That won't transpire again next season, so the reverse effect can be applied to them. Knowing they were under par but still held off an 'improved' Arsenal reminds them how strong they are. It realigns their focus that the changes in the squad do not have to be as dramatic as the press suggested a 6 weeks ago.

Billionaire ‘cheats' or not, it sets an immovable bar of high standards at Chelsea and City (and we’ve got some cheek denigrating those clubs given the corporate approach taken by our club and how distant they are from fans) where second best isn't tolerated, let alone a comfortable, safe third. Again, looking at Atletico and Dortmund as examples, their hungriness to succeed takes some abating on the pitch, an eagerness you can’t always align with ourselves. That’s what a desire to succeed looks like, not easing off at the start of the season and when the minimum has been achieved.

[Letters]

I can understand why it never occurred to you, but it's not either/ or for me. I wanted both.

Wow. Now that is thinking. You should definitely be Arsenal manager, I never thought it would be good to have both.
</sarcasm>

Yes. Obviously. Any Arsenal fan would want both. It's a completely redundant statement. But if I had to pick one...it's a no brainer.
Finishing above our rivals is important, but it's not as important winning a trophy. We should be aspiring to finish above everyone, just wanting to finish above a specific rival is the stuff of Spurs fans.

You keep emphasising winning, finishing 2nd isn't winning, it is, by definition, second best. Only finishing 1st is winning. Only when that was no longer a possibility and with a Cup Final in the back of their minds did some easing off occur. Just as it has with Chelsea when they clinched the title - and they don't have a Cup Final to think about.

The ideal in sport is everyone gives 100% every game, the reality is that never happens. Had the title still been possible then that would not be acceptable, you argue it is never acceptable. Maybe so but the reality is it happens to every team no matter who the manager is. When the title is no longer possible, you have already secured a CL place and all but secured automatic qualification, I can forgive them for it.

Easing off when top 4 is secure and the title is still possible: Not acceptable. Shows the same old priorities and failings
Easing off when top 4 is secure and the title has gone: I can forgive them for that. Especially with the Cup Final in the back of their minds.

Any other manager at any other club would be long, long gone.

In the '8 years without a trophy' period, I agree. No manager at any other club at our level would have kept his job.
The board clearly saw him as a safe pair of hands, perennial top 4 finishes, the money kept rolling in.
And maybe in that era that is what we needed, where he failed in that era was with a few 'near misses' where we should have won trophies and failed to.

The financial deals are there now and we have the money to start seriously competing. The new level of signings which have resulted have made a difference.
The Cup win last year was a nice relief after so many barren years. It gave us hope for this season and I agree that the start of the season was a massive balls up. But some credit where it's due for them picking up, 3rd and the Cup wouldn't be a disaster of a season. Could have been better, after 12 games it could have been a lot worse.

I said at the end of last season give him the second season where he has proper funds and see what he can do. Well he fucked it. So there's the answer.

I don't agree that's 'the answer'. Any manager at any club will have good and bad seasons for all kinds of reasons. As discussed earlier in this thread, Klopp is having a bad one at Dortmund. Far worse than us. That doesn't make him a bad manager. This season...well, a lot is riding on the FA Cup Final.
Generally, as a club, I feel we're going in the right direction. We're signing a higher quality of players, we're winning trophies again, we put a sustained run together this year which, if we manage to do it over a season, would win us the league or see us go very close. It's debatable whether Wenger is the right man to push us on now but neither Chelsea or City won titles immediately after winning the lottery, Chelsea finished 4th when Abramovic bought them, it took them a couple of years to cheat their way to the top and they spent a lot more money than we have (may not be true, but relative to the transfer market at the time I suspect it is).

[Letters]

Used to be a major trophy but like the Uefa cup it's been massively devalued in the last twenty years

Has been devalued, certainly.
Never been considered 'Mickey Mouse' though.

[Letters]

Its a major trophy won by Wigan and Portsmouth recently who were relegated, immediately after. That we have bucked the trend is also an achievement, I guess.

Wow
And people accuse me of twisting stats.

Well done, you picked the two seasons since the PL began over 20 years ago when anyone other than a 'big' team won it.
Portsmouth won it in a freak season when all the big boys got knocked out and they played Cardiff in the final.
Wigan were playing Man City, clearly City were big favourites and it was a shock result.
Every other year it's been one of the big boys.

[Niall_Quinn]

With the exception of the 3million KSE has received there hadn't been any immediate financial rewards unless Kroenke sells his shareholder ship and there is no indication that he will do this.

Well he will at some stage or what's the point? He's not in it for the love of the game. People like Kroenke bet on sure things. You and I take a punt and are subject to market forces. He will already know what's going to happen in the market. The increased TV deal didn't get decided overnight, for example. These things are announced only once the key figures are happy with their cut. The change in FFP rules, that would have been known well in advance. Kroneke is an investor (in the real sense as opposed to the types at Utd), his aim is to make a profit on his relationship with Arsenal and seeing as he's kicked half a billion into the pot I doubt he's going to wait around to watch it trickle back over the long term. Usmanov is next in line, then the Nigerian guy I suppose. Plenty of room at the trough provided the game doesn't collapse under the weight of the bullshit.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Success breeds success. Bayern Munich make the template of succeeding the template for business. I see no where in the report where government subsidies are included. Do you really think the other teams would have stood for that without going to court.? As ever, make up an alternative reality to substitute for the real one, it helps I guess.

There is plenty to be critical of and we are pretty much on the same page. However the stadium comparison is immaterial to this discussion because there is no legitimate comparison to be made as illustrated by earlier posts here and in past discussions from years ago.

The most cursory research will also demonstrate that.

[Kano]

Wenger "Finishing second means you are better than 18 teams, who doesn't want that?...That's a competitive attitude...the end of a season is linked to belief of next seasons start".

Ramsey "Finishing second is probably progression".

Added to similar comments from Merts, Wilshere, Paulista, Sanchez and Cazorla it's clear what the belief is from the players.

Have the players purposely slacked off with the final ahead or top four secured? One win in four games seems to contradict those statements at the top. Words are one thing but breaking a decade long habit - with the same man still overseeing things - is an incredibly hard thing to achieve. Best intentions aren't always enough to fix a situation or change its direction. Most of the players at our club probably feel like they've already made it, playing for a big club like ours on mega wages. A lot have been plucked from smaller teams. We have a very comfortable 'home' where Wenger is rarely in a hurry to ditch a player. Naming an unchanged team even after we stopped winning sends a message of safety for players. Ferguson went 99 games or something ridiculous naming changed teams because he got that not only do you have to keep players fresh but they have to be kept on their toes.

If those statements at the top are to be taken at face value then the squad has been mismanaged to the point of failing to achieve the goal of second. If we are to look at the performances as 'slacking off' rather than lack of ability, then it also points to a similar managerial and motivational issue. Either way I think there is a problem to be examined inbetween the goal set and what was achieved. One thing is for certain, players at our club like ours don't start off a season aiming to win the FA Cup. That is only a bonus. A decoration. Nothing more and not really remembered after the career is done alongside the more celebrated trophies.

[Marc Overmars]

2nd, 3rd, 4th - meh.

Well 4th would be annoying but 2nd or 3rd I'm not really arsed. We will accumulate less points than last year but probably finish higher this year, league positions and points tallies need to be put into perspective. We have stagnated, as far as I'm concerned the only barometer that needs to be looked at is where we are in terms of challenging for the league and sadly we were nowhere near, again. This was the year for us to gain some credibility as challengers, we have the squad but unfortunately a manager who just can't seem to give his team those marginal gains needed.

All I can say is just win the cup, don't even dare to screw it up WUMger.

[Globalgunner]

There is plenty to be critical of and we are pretty much on the same page. However the stadium comparison is immaterial to this discussion because there is no legitimate comparison to be made as illustrated by earlier posts here and in past discussions from years ago.

The most cursory research will also demonstrate that.

Tha`ts probably why the same comparison was made in a national daily and came to the same conclusion that ours was a lousy deal

[Xhaka Can’t]

Tha`ts probably why the same comparison was made in a national daily and came to the same conclusion that ours was a lousy deal

Seriously, give it up. You blew it with that comparison. For starters, a major infrastructure project in London bears no comparison at all with the same in Munich. Secondly, there were two teams involved in that project: the equivalent of us and Spurs being joint partners.

Subsequent to project completion, one of the partners went bankrupt so the other took advantage and bought the remaining half for buttons.

Additionally, there was circa 40% public money used to fund the project in Munich whereas Arsenal had to contribute to public infrastructure in order to secure planning permission.


If you persist in making a comparison between construction and management if those two projects, you're off your head.

A valid comparison would be with the new Wembley stadium project.