Wenger Referendum III - End of Season Poll

[Niall_Quinn]

Wenger is in the media today writing off our prospects of going for any of the top tier signings this summer. They don't represent value for money, supposedly. Now I agree to an extent with what he says, take Falcao for example. £50mill is a complete joke. Or Di Maria at £60mill, it's a hilariously inflated figure. But that doesn't mean ALL potential top targets are over-priced by default (in relation to the crazy market). Wenger assures us, value for money still remains his imperative. Qualifying for Europe remains a virtual trophy, not just with the manager but with some of the fans.

This is a second tier mentality. Okay, maybe you don't chase the most expensive targets. But why come out and boast about it? Maybe you secretly view qualification for the CL as the top priority each season. But again, keep that to yourself.

When the stadium was being constructed the fan base was weaned into accepting we'd be second tier until the build was complete and certain financial realities kicked in. That has happened now. So why are we still shouting the supposed benefits of our second tier status from the rooftops?

This is what has to change. The whole point of the stadium move was to be able to compete at the very top level. The very top. Somebody let our manager know.

[Niall_Quinn]

As a great man once said "If you're not first, you're last"

2nd or 3rd makes no difference, obviously.

That's the ultimate winner's mentality. The kind of mentality needed when going into a must-win game against the chavs, for example. You wouldn't have heard that great man (if he exists) say fuck it, we'll never catch this lot. Or, ease back guys, we've qualified for the CL now so take a breather. Any club with those sorry arse ideas will of course end up second best.

[Globalgunner]

All of this stuff won't change Letters mind. He's already made up his projections for next season. Top 4 +Carling cup. Job done. We have a good squad but it isn't complete, . Will he show one of Flamini and Arteta the door and get a top notch DM to give Coq some competition.

The squad isn't the problem anyway. If we really want to challenge at the top level the manager is the weak link.

[Maestro]

Summer 2013: The fans were seething as top four and cheap signings were no longer enough = Job & reputation on the line and Wenger buys Ozil last minute to placate the baying mob, and adds the FA Cup to the top four 2014

Summer 2014: The fans were seething again as top four, one star signing and a cup were not enough = Job & reputation on the line again and Wenger buys Sanchez, several average players and adds the FA Cup 2015

Summer 2015: Fans still very much divided and some seething, as there's again been no title challenge and embarrassment in the CL = ..............

[fakeyank]

All of this stuff won't change Letters mind. He's already made up his projections for next season. Top 4 +Carling cup. Job done. We have a good squad but it isn't complete, . Will he show one of Flamini and Arteta the door and get a top notch DM to give Coq some competition.

The squad isn't the problem anyway. If we really want to challenge at the top level the manager is the weak link.

The problem is not the squad. The problem was not the squad last year when we got steamrolled by the big boys. The problem was not the squad when we squandered a 5 point lead with a game in hand in 2007-08. The problem is the manager. I just do not see Wenger have an idea for managers who have a plan against him. His tactical nous is as bad as it gets.. And if your expectations are that arsenal will be one of the top clubs in Europe, Wenger will NEVER be that man.

[cricketsi]

I have to say, you can see why fans of other clubs think fans of the top clubs are spoilt and arrogant. Winning the FA cup would have meant everything to the Villa fans. We should appreciate this success more.

We definitely need a better close season now though, make the right signings in good time so we can hit the ground running. That bit is the worry.

[Power n Glory]

I think we all do appreciate the victory but it doesn't change opinions. Letter's is just trolling (again)with this thread. No real need to discuss this right after the FA Cup. He's looking for knee jerk reactions but it's not really happening.

[Letters]

I think we all do appreciate the victory but it doesn't change opinions. Letter's is just trolling (again)with this thread. No real need to discuss this right after the FA Cup. He's looking for knee jerk reactions but it's not really happening.

You are a tosser

It's an obvious time to gauge opinion again, now the season has ended. If I wanted knee jerk reactions I'd have posted this just after the game, I deliberately waited a couple of days till the dust had settled.

[Letters]

All of this stuff won't change Letters mind.

I've changed my mind a few times this season. I honestly don't understand why that is so sneered at.
Keeping the same opinion about something no matter what happens seems far sillier.

[Niall_Quinn]

I don't think anyone sneers at those who change their mind. That's not what I see. I changed mine, others changed theirs. Not based on whim I'm sure, but we're two years into the period that was supposed to be the end goal of the stadium move. Yes, there have been bigger signings. Nobody is complaining about that and it's very welcome and a sign that (still within conservative bounds) the board is delivering on promises. The manager has also started to fill urgently needed positions, whether by design or pure luck. This too is good. What it is starting to give us is a squad that might seriously be able to compete for the big prizes, certainly something we all want to see. But in addition it is giving us a team capable of returning to the type of football we became accustomed to in Wenger's early years and that's the biggest prize from my point of view.

So there are plenty of positives and nobody denies that.

The negatives are all related to the manager himself. He's a great club manager, steering the club through the leaner times and keeping things steady both financially and in terms of finishing high enough up the table each year to qualify for the CL. No trivial thing and he deserves and I believe he gets plenty of credit for that. But he's not a top coach, his faults lie on the pitch. We know this because we have seen them year after year and even after the loosening of the purse strings the same faults are evident. And his stubborn streak is still a mile wide. The conclusion many have reached is that he can't take us up to the very top level that was supposed to be the point of the stadium move.

When you say things like there being no difference between 2nd and 3rd, or there's no difference between finishing above or below the gypos, or that we are making progress because we don't need to pre-qualify for the CL proper, these look back to the period we're supposed to be emerging from. They are the excuses that maybe did apply when the funds were tightly restricted and we had to sell top players. They don't apply now though, not at all or in any way. Time is up on excuses. This is what people sneer at, the excuses.

For example, the excuse about not being able to compete with the dopers went out the window this season. We had it in our hands to dispose of the gypos at least. We blew it, not because they had more money than us but because we couldn't finish out the season in the required manner. The question is why? Anyone who thinks the answer is because 2nd is no different to 3rd, or it's acceptable to slacken off because every team does it (supposedly, though look at the gypo finish to the season for contrary evidence), or we were saving ourselves for the cup (therefore not being good enough to compete on two fronts), etc, etc, excuse, excuse, is going to get sneered at.

Anyone who says we can't change the manager because there are no guarantees about how the next guy will perform, is going to get sneered at or criticised at least. Of course there are no guarantees. If managers came with guarantees then they'd settle at the top clubs and never move. This thinking is just a way of reaching for a safety net.

It's difficult to say never about Wenger's chances of grabbing another title, a little easier to say he'll never win the CL. All there is to go on when predicting the future is the evidence of the last 10 years. That evidence points at it being time for him to pass the responsibilities to somebody else if we genuinely want to push on to the top. You can say what if, what if, in the face of the evidence all day long. Or you can take the evidence and act on it. But don't make excuses to try to make the evidence go away. It's still there, in the record books. Just like a 12th Cup for the club and a 6th Cup for Wenger is in the record books. The good and the bad. A difficult decision for fans, no wonder minds change back and forwards.

But the evidence is there. Wenger's teams fail on the biggest stages, again and again, check the record books for the gory details. Under Wenger I'm sure we can almost achieve this or very nearly achieve that. We can get tantalisingly close, within sniffing distance. But never there. This is what his last 10 years tells us. Lots of fun, lots of farce, maybe another cup win (which is much appreciated but not the topmost achievement by any reckoning), but ultimately glorious failure. This is what lies in store for Arsenal under Wenger for the next 2 years at least. Is that good enough?

Of course there is that fact he won't be going anywhere until 2017 at the earliest. And listening to him after the cup win, and I'll happily grant him his moment after a day like that, he's certainly not made any firm decisions about that date yet. So he could be here for longer. I hope not because he'll degrade his legacy badly if he hangs on but fails to win a big prize.

I loved the football we played in the final though. Just as much as I hated the football we played during the season run-in.