Arsenal 2-0 Stoke - Match Reaction

[Letters]

Btw - I don't disagree with you in some respects. I believe we did take our foot off the gas when the CL pacing was secured and I believe Wenger also thinks there's no difference between 2nd and 3rd place. Which is why he needs to go.

You always miss out the key part. It wasn't when CL football was secured we took our foot off the gas, it was when the title had gone.

We lost on the first day of the year vs Southampton, the 18 games I posted the stats for above were the games after that (I didn't deliberately leave out that loss to skew the stats by the way, I just thought the start of the year was a decent place to start)


The 14 results after that were P14 W12 D1 L1. You can't really argue with those results. The last of those games was the win at Hull, after that Chelsea played and their result wrapped up the title for them. It was only after that we 'collapsed', if that's really what you want to call it, failing to win the next 3 games.


Now, you could argue we collapsed because top 4 was assured but if we were only interested in top 4 we really didn't need to push quite as hard as we did in those 14 games. We could have coasted way before then and still got into the top 4 fairly comfortably.

There is clearly a massive difference between 1st and 2nd. Because of the CL Qualification there's a big difference between 4th and 5th.
But 2nd to 4th? There's some difference, obviously, but I think you're over-stating it to make a point which doesn't really stack up.

[selassie]

Isn't he converting him into a centre forward because Bif's not good enough and Wenger can't find the "value" he wants in the transfer market? Is this Wenger's Plan A or is it no plan at all and purely reactionary? Why Chamack? Why not convert Theo back then? Why Sanogo? Why not convert Theo? 50% will be the injuries which (although probably not entirely) have been beyond Wenger's control. Which begs the question can Theo ever get a run in the team without being laid-up? So far no. It'd would be great if Theo stays fit and finds his consistency and ups his involvement and finds his accuracy and all that - we'll be in good shape if that happens. Or we could have bought a striker that can already do all that and doesn't get injured all the time. The way Wenger seems to have chosen relies on a lot of things coming good that haven't come good so far. Doing it the hard way is how he likes it though.

Yeah I definitely think the driver to converting Theo is BIF not being good enough and Wenger messing about in the market, we all know what Wenger is like, if he can't find a player that matches his "Year 2000 Transfer valuations" then he won't buy them irrespective of who they are.

I do agree with your point though, Wenger is a gambler and he gambles unnecessarily.

[Niall_Quinn]

You always miss out the key part. It wasn't when CL football was secured we took our foot off the gas, it was when the title had gone.

We lost on the first day of the year vs Southampton, the 18 games I posted the stats for above were the games after that (I didn't deliberately leave out that loss to skew the stats by the way, I just thought the start of the year was a decent place to start)


The 14 results after that were P14 W12 D1 L1. You can't really argue with those results. The last of those games was the win at Hull, after that Chelsea played and their result wrapped up the title for them. It was only after that we 'collapsed', if that's really what you want to call it, failing to win the next 3 games.


Now, you could argue we collapsed because top 4 was assured but if we were only interested in top 4 we really didn't need to push quite as hard as we did in those 14 games. We could have coasted way before then and still got into the top 4 fairly comfortably.

There is clearly a massive difference between 1st and 2nd. Because of the CL Qualification there's a big difference between 4th and 5th.
But 2nd to 4th? There's some difference, obviously, but I think you're over-stating it to make a point which doesn't really stack up.

So in effect the gypos were just showing off by winning their last 5 and securing the runners-up spot when it made no difference where they finished because the chavs had won the title? Or was it their money that made them value finishing as highly as possible? Or did their money prevent them taking their foot off the gas? Just goes to prove your point. Dopers. We can't compete with them because we were forced to take our foot off the gas when the chavs secured the title. I bet the gypos bribed somebody using their money so they could carry on with the pedal firmly pressed down. We can't compete against that. In a way, we were top last year if you discount the dopers who we can't compete against because it's "understandable" for us not to try.

[Globalgunner]

if it wasnt for those pesky Billionaire dopers and that nasty old Scotsman we would be pissing this league and Wenger would be rightly acknowledged as the greatest man since Albert Einstein

[Penguin]

I think you are giving Theo a hard time TBH, you are cherry picking games he didn't score in and using it as justification to why he shouldn't lead the line. Theo's movement creates chances, it might not be as exotic as dribbling round 5 players but it's still an attribute that creates chances, he was heavily involved in the build up to Chambo's goal against Chelsea with his movement, that counts as far as I am concerned as directly being involved in the goal. Sure he didn't have a shot on target but I think he just be cut some slack because he has more than earnt a chance up there given his record in the big games, he knows how to deliver in them.

In the grand scheme of things Theo's record as a Centre Forward is very good and right now we have no other option and TBH I don't think Wenger is in any hurry to buy a "world class" centre forward, his comment post match after Stoke about "Where would Theo play?" if he bought a new forward says it all for me.

He has only started five games up front since he came back from his injury and I've picked the two that he was ineffective in. That's hardly cherry picking, and it's no coincidence that those were the matches that he had to deal with the very tactics that people are saying he'd struggle against.

Maybe I am being harsh on him, but the best forwards tend to have more about them rather than relying on one attribute. Players like Aguero and RvP have good movement too, but in those tight games where they don't get the space they need in the danger areas, they both have the tools to do the damage in another way. Whether it's with a bit of skill, a clever turn in the box, dropping a little bit deeper and testing the keeper from long range, they can do it all. I don't see that in Theo at all.

A lot of the time we don't even have the option to pass it to his feet either because he doesn't like playing with his back to goal, and that just ends up making it even harder to find him or to get into good positions. No wonder he vanished at Newcastle; there was no space behind their defence, we couldn't pass it to his feet, and he can't head the ball. It makes a big difference to have someone to play off through the middle to bring your midfielders closer to the goal, especially for a team like ours that criminally under-use the wings.

Right now I agree with you, give Theo a run. But is he a good enough main CF to win us the league? Not sure about that. He'd do well to hit even half the level of some of his predecessors. Back to the drawing board next summer.



PS - I think you're being very generous to Theo if you think he deserves even part of the credit for the goal against Chelsea. That was all Ox

[Özim]

I don't really get the Walcott debate, he's had 10 years at the best possible club for a youngster, since Wenger has turned us into a glorified youth scheme and yet to date he's still not become the player he was supposed to have been or in reality delivered much on the pitch.

We've heard what he could become for years and yet at the age of 26 he's still nowhere near what that was suppose to be, how long does a player need to become top class on the pitch?

It seems to be very few people seem convinced about his ability, RVP to me was clearly massively talented from a young age, you could see by the way he played he had a special talent, however Walcott IMO has never shown that kind of ability, he's effective against tired defence or when his pace let's him get behind defences (seems pretty rare), but you can't really argue his conversion rate overall is pretty poor.

As for these flashes of brilliance, they happen so seldomly that you'd have to put it down more to chance than ability IMO. We've heard the Henry comparisons for years, but let's be honest he's not in the same league (who is) and is never going to score anywhere near as many or be as important to us as Henry was, Henry was intelligent on the ball, had pace, could finish from anywhere and had artistic flair, whereas Walcott really only has pace on his side, his finishing if you ask me is very hit and miss as highlighted by his career stats.

Anywa IMO he's had plenty of opportunities at this club and we really now should have been looking for someone proven who is ready to deliver and not waiting on players in the hope they one day do.

[Power n Glory]

He has only started five games up front since he came back from his injury and I've picked the two that he was ineffective in. That's hardly cherry picking, and it's no coincidence that those were the matches that he had to deal with the very tactics that people are saying he'd struggle against.

Maybe I am being harsh on him, but the best forwards tend to have more about them rather than relying on one attribute. Players like Aguero and RvP have good movement too, but in those tight games where they don't get the space they need in the danger areas, they both have the tools to do the damage in another way. Whether it's with a bit of skill, a clever turn in the box, dropping a little bit deeper and testing the keeper from long range, they can do it all. I don't see that in Theo at all.

A lot of the time we don't even have the option to pass it to his feet either because he doesn't like playing with his back to goal, and that just ends up making it even harder to find him or to get into good positions. No wonder he vanished at Newcastle; there was no space behind their defence, we couldn't pass it to his feet, and he can't head the ball. It makes a big difference to have someone to play off through the middle to bring your midfielders closer to the goal, especially for a team like ours that criminally under-use the wings.

Right now I agree with you, give Theo a run. But is he a good enough main CF to win us the league? Not sure about that. He'd do well to hit even half the level of some of his predecessors. Back to the drawing board next summer.



PS - I think you're being very generous to Theo if you think he deserves even part of the credit for the goal against Chelsea. That was all Ox

But isn't this a problem we have with Giroud as well? See the West Ham game. We tried to adopt the same concept with Chamakh where we're bouncing passes off him like a wall to bring in our midfield players. That didn't work either. It's a flawed gameplan and why I have doubts about signing a Costa, Cavani or Benzema if we were still to approach games like this. They'd be an upgrade but they don't play in teams that play this style, they don't have that explosive burst or agility so I often wonder if they'd have the same problems. They're too big and bulky. I can only see an RVP, Tevez, Aguero or Suarez type that would suit our play.

We can't get any of those so the next solution is to develop a player. If we won't use Sanchez in that role, then at least give Theo a shot and sharpen him up. You may get the games like Newcastle or Chelsea this season but you may also get the other Newcastle results where he scores a hat trick or the West Brom game. It's better than nothing and as Wenger said himself....

“I know Stoke are a compact, organised team in their own half and Theo could find little pockets to get in their and maybe that you get two or three chances to counter attack at home so maybe you can use that,”

And that's how they played. It was compact and tight but we created chances and it's encouraging to hear that he's seeing things differently or trying something new. Theo was finding the little pockets of space and that's something we won't get from a striker like Giroud. Giroud's role is to hold the ball up so players like Ramsey, Ozil, Cazorla and Wilshere find the small pockets of space. But when those guys are firing blanks or looking for Giroud to find space we get this tippy tappy back and forth. We can't really sacrifice a striker just in hope that players like Ozil and co will find their shooting boots. Even Ramsey is getting deployed on the right simply because Wenger wants him find space to get a shooting opportunity. He makes smart runs but there has to be another way.

[Letters]

So in effect the gypos were just showing off by winning their last 5 and securing the runners-up spot when it made no difference where they finished because the chavs had won the title?

Not showing off but what did they achieve by doing it? They finished 2nd rather than 3rd.
Their good finish didn't win them the title any more than we won it, they qualified automatically for the CL just like we did.
Finishing 2nd is better than finishing 3rd but only marginally, it's not the difference between 1st and 2nd which is obviously huge.
City didn't have a "Yes, we finished 2nd!" open top bus parade.

Or was it their money that made them value finishing as highly as possible? Or did their money prevent them taking their foot off the gas?

Well, the money has bought them a very good squad which is clearly going to win a lot of games. They had nothing to play for but they had nothing to distract them either, we had the FA Cup final - players are clearly not going to want to get injured for that and that may distract them somewhat. With the title no longer possible, I can understand that. If the title was still on the table then I agree, that's not acceptable but there was a clear difference between our results before the title was wrapped up by Chelsea and after. We did enough to qualify automatically and win the Cup.
I regard 3rd and the FA Cup as a relatively successful season, I don't think I'd regard 2nd and the FA Cup hugely differently.

[selassie]

He has only started five games up front since he came back from his injury and I've picked the two that he was ineffective in. That's hardly cherry picking, and it's no coincidence that those were the matches that he had to deal with the very tactics that people are saying he'd struggle against.

Maybe I am being harsh on him, but the best forwards tend to have more about them rather than relying on one attribute. Players like Aguero and RvP have good movement too, but in those tight games where they don't get the space they need in the danger areas, they both have the tools to do the damage in another way. Whether it's with a bit of skill, a clever turn in the box, dropping a little bit deeper and testing the keeper from long range, they can do it all. I don't see that in Theo at all.

A lot of the time we don't even have the option to pass it to his feet either because he doesn't like playing with his back to goal, and that just ends up making it even harder to find him or to get into good positions. No wonder he vanished at Newcastle; there was no space behind their defence, we couldn't pass it to his feet, and he can't head the ball. It makes a big difference to have someone to play off through the middle to bring your midfielders closer to the goal, especially for a team like ours that criminally under-use the wings.

Right now I agree with you, give Theo a run. But is he a good enough main CF to win us the league? Not sure about that. He'd do well to hit even half the level of some of his predecessors. Back to the drawing board next summer.



PS - I think you're being very generous to Theo if you think he deserves even part of the credit for the goal against Chelsea. That was all Ox

Fair enough, I totally agree with you that there are big question marks over whether Theo is a good enough main CF to win us the league but I still think he's the best candidate we have.

If we had a manager who was more decisive in his recruitment then we wouldn't even be having this debate

[Niall_Quinn]

Not showing off but what did they achieve by doing it? They finished 2nd rather than 3rd.
Their good finish didn't win them the title any more than we won it, they qualified automatically for the CL just like we did.
Finishing 2nd is better than finishing 3rd but only marginally, it's not the difference between 1st and 2nd which is obviously huge.
City didn't have a "Yes, we finished 2nd!" open top bus parade.


Well, the money has bought them a very good squad which is clearly going to win a lot of games. They had nothing to play for but they had nothing to distract them either, we had the FA Cup final - players are clearly not going to want to get injured for that and that may distract them somewhat. With the title no longer possible, I can understand that. If the title was still on the table then I agree, that's not acceptable but there was a clear difference between our results before the title was wrapped up by Chelsea and after. We did enough to qualify automatically and win the Cup.
I regard 3rd and the FA Cup as a relatively successful season, I don't think I'd regard 2nd and the FA Cup hugely differently.

Ty just phoned and asked me to tell you to dial it back a bit.