Who Will Win The League - 2

[Power n Glory]

It was a successful side because of his strengths and it wasn't more successful because Wenger has flaws. This is what people don't seem to recognise. Maybe this isn't what people think but it comes across like people think Wenger was this genius of a manager back in the day and is now a bumbling idiot ™. The fact is he revolutionised the English game with his fitness regime and his knowledge of the European game. For a while we were just better than everyone else. And yes, people do talk about the Graham defence and while that was a factor it wasn't the main one, and the Invincibles defence was entirely his own.

Now we're not better than everyone else. Other clubs have caught up and arguably overtaken us with the fitness methods and worldwide scouting network. The billionaires swept in and bought up titles right at a time when our funds were (relatively speaking) restricted. We've lost the edge Wenger initially gave us. He's done pretty well to keep us in the top 4 during the stadium move, now we've got the new financial deals we should be pushing on. The FA Cups bought him some time to do so but this year we really needed to challenge. We did for a while but now we've fallen away. But that doesn't mean that he's suddenly an idiot or that the last 10 years have been an unmitigated failure.

On whose part is this misunderstood? Just looking at Bob’s and Alexander’s response to what I’ve said about Wenger’s previous teams, I think there is a misunderstanding on their part because I and others have been accused of revisionism and trying to strip Wenger off all his accomplishments. When younger, I thought Wenger was a genius but as the years have gone by and we’ve seen key components stripped away from the club (Old Guard, Vieira, Dein, etc) and Wenger being unable to reproduce the same results. Yes, the game has moved on and teams have improved but is it wrong to assume Wenger worked a lot better with figures like Dein and certain players? Surely we have to recognise the contribution from those that have left as well and consider their influence on the manager?

I said a long time ago Wenger wasn’t a great tactician and it was a pretty unpopular opinion when I said it on GW years back. So certain things being said now have been said before and not just a case of completely downgrading Wenger because where we are in the league. You say we were way better than the opposition when Wenger arrived and I agree with that totally. We were ahead of all of the Premier League teams tactically, fitness levels, technically, scouting etc. Yes, we’ve recently lost the edge but if we were way better than everyone else, when Chelsea arrived and then City, technically, we should have been way better than everyone else bar the 3 teams that were minted. So I don’t really go overboard with the Top 4 finishes.

[Niall_Quinn]

Wenger's past is only useful for comparison purposes and trying to explain why he is so behind the pace today. But I have heard fans saying the successes of his early years are sufficient that he should be allowed to write his own legacy, go when he wants, stay for as long as he wants, decide who will replace him. That's bullshit. The only thing we should be concerned with is what he's delivering today and it's not enough.

How would fans react if Wrighty was brought back as the main striker based on his amazing record with the club? Well the same goes for Wenger. As the banner says, thanks for the memories but goodbye. The only disrespect on show is Wenger's as he hangs on and refuses to leave even though he has failed to deliver time after time.

His legacy needs to be kept in context. It is not a magic shield, or it shouldn't be. It's not up to the fans to defend that legacy either. Wenger needs to do that himself, through his performances. Who would be criticising him if he was delivering results? In fact who would be criticising him after only one or two seasons off the pace? Very few. But it's 10 seasons and that's more than enough. While the efforts of his early years shouldn't be tarnished his performance in the later years can be rightly judged to be entirely unacceptable. Not just because he hasn't delivered, but because he's stubborn, arrogant, a man who refuses to listen to anyone or learn even from his own experience. Fans trying to sugar coat the last 10 years by pointing back even further don't have a leg to stand on. It's not Wenger's job to make excuses about why he can't deliver. It's his job to deliver regardless of the environment, as Ferguson did. We saw Arsenal and Utd battle it out season after season before the chavs arrived. After that Wenger can't get a look-in while Ferguson takes up the battle and holds his own. Wenger can make all the excuses he wants, but it wasn't the chavs that prevented him replacing Vieira, it wasn't the chavs that hired a bunch of tippy, tappy dwarfs to go up against the Neanderthals in the PL, it wasn't the gypos who signed Sanogo for us or brought Flamini back on a freebie. Wenger did all that. If he wants to make every decision on every issue then let him stand by those decisions when the shit comes down.

I would say enough excuses for Wenger now. They are tired, over used and they don't stand up to even the mildest scrutiny. Not after all this time. At what point, 10 seasons down the line and counting, do the hard core Wenger supporters (like that ginger on Arsenal Fan TV) twig what's happened here? Wenger. Plot. Lost. Seriously, wakey, wakey!

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Really? I thought it was universally understood that Wenger has always been tactically limited

In fact the same things were said about Arsenal even when he had his invincibles team, deny them space and time and they will find it hard to play, they don't like playing physical teams, they try to walk the ball in the net etc

The difference today is the players that Wenger has bought since 2006 are on average smaller, physically slighter and more technical and they don't take collective responsibility for their performances.
They also lack the ability to defend a corner and about ten seconds later have the ball in the opposistion net which was the greatest strength of that Wenger team to break with pace.

[Niall_Quinn]

Really? I thought it was universally understood that Wenger has always been tactically limited

In fact the same things were said about Arsenal even when he had his invincibles team, deny them space and time and they will find it hard to play, they don't like playing physical teams, they try to walk the ball in the net etc

The difference today is the players that Wenger has bought since 2006 are on average smaller, physically slighter and more technical and they don't take collective responsibility for their performances.
They also lack the ability to defend a corner and about ten seconds later have the ball in the opposistion net which was the greatest strength of that Wenger team to break with pace.

That was it. The tactics were simple. First stand up to the opponent and win the physical confrontation (often in the tunnel), then control the play and encourage the opponent to come out, then hit them ruthlessly on the break - at least three men breaking at high speed right across the pitch. Finally outlast the opponent using superior stamina and fitness (to the point we were accused of drugging up the players). Right players, right tactics for this league.

Then Wenger made the catastrophic decision to create Barca Lite. We've never recovered. We could have recovered, but he's too stubborn to acknowledge his mistakes. That clip with him talking about creating beauty in man. Basically, fuck off. Admit you were wrong matey and fix it.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I don't know, I don't think it's as simple as that there were times when we passed the ball to death and showed little in the way of penetration even when we had the players where we could play the style of football you have just described.

For a key example look at the Champions league home games in the second stage group of 2002/2003 where we failed to break down Valencia, Ajax or Roma at Highbury (0-0), (1-1) and (1-1).

Which suggests to me that the tactics have changed less than the attributes of the playing personnel.

[Niall_Quinn]

I don't know, I don't think it's as simple as that there were times when we passed the ball to death and showed little in the way of penetration even when we had the players where we could play the style of football you have just described.

For a key example look at the Champions league home games in the second stage group of 2002/2003 where we failed to break down Valencia, Ajax or Roma at Highbury (0-0), (1-1) and (1-1).

Which suggests to me that the tactics have changed less than the attributes of the playing personnel.

I agree, that was a result of Plan A failing which was to draw the opponent on to us. When they refused we'd be a bit stuck, but we had brilliant individuals who could improvise. Players better than Giroud, for example.

[Power n Glory]

Really? I thought it was universally understood that Wenger has always been tactically limited

In fact the same things were said about Arsenal even when he had his invincibles team, deny them space and time and they will find it hard to play, they don't like playing physical teams, they try to walk the ball in the net etc

The difference today is the players that Wenger has bought since 2006 are on average smaller, physically slighter and more technical and they don't take collective responsibility for their performances.
They also lack the ability to defend a corner and about ten seconds later have the ball in the opposistion net which was the greatest strength of that Wenger team to break with pace.

Universally now but not in the early when GW first started. Wenger was hardly questioned in the early days. A lot has changed since.

[Globalgunner]

We have never had a team as great as the boys of 2000-2004. If Wenger wasnt able to reach the heights with those players. Its unlikely with him getting worse and players getting worse that we will ever be able to reach even those giddy heights. Even the great teams need a great manager to take them over the mountain.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Universally now but not in the early when GW first started. Wenger was hardly questioned in the early days. A lot has changed since.

From what I can remember he was criticised but his sacking was not called for by many until the last five years or so.

[Niall_Quinn]

From what I can remember he was criticised but his sacking was not called for by many until the last five years or so.

I wasn't here for the early days of GW. So whatever was said back then doesn't really count for much.