Are the glory days over for good?

[Özim]

It's a difference in outlook. Some people who follow Arsenal see it as a product to be consumed. Others are thick and thin supporters. In a sense those supporters can't be conned, because value for money is not a consideration to them. They have an emotional attachment to the club, an attachment that could be exploited by an unscrupulous board.

Consumers on the other hand will flock away in droves when the product isn't great.

Calling one side lemmings and the other side plastics just shows a fundamental lack of understanding of why people follow a particular team.

I know what you're saying but I simply don't understand how someone could allow themselves to be treated with so little respect when they pay so much money.

Loyalty and emotional attachment are one thing, but common sense has to come into it surely.

[Özim]

I always judge forwards by their movement and tenacity, if these traits are in place then I feel goals will come naturally if you have a little patience. Look at Chamakh for example, a complete statue most of the time and very rarely gets himself into goal scoring positions. Can't say the same for Gervinho, I'd give him a little longer yet.

Not sure I agree, plenty of players have got good movement and are tenacious but lack a finish, I think Gervinho has got potenital but not as a forward IMO he doesn't seem to have the shooting ability.

[Ollie the Optimist]

i think if you look at our history, we have never really dominated for a long time like united have etc. how long did we wait for a league title before 89? wenger brought a period of continual success and challenges that have raised our expectations to expect it every year. of course we will be succesful again, whether wenger will make us again is debatable.

[Fist of Lehmann]

I know what you're saying but I simply don't understand how someone could allow themselves to be treated with so little respect when they pay so much money.

Loyalty and emotional attachment are one thing, but common sense has to come into it surely.

If you've read Fever Pitch you'd know that common sense doesn't come into it. For some, namely the away support (or the hardcore as LDG likes to call it) this kind of cost-benefit analysis simply doesn't happen.

You don't understand it because your support doesn't work the same way.

[Cripps_orig]

Under Wenger, yes and probably the next manager as well as it'll take some time to get out of this rut unless the next manager is a miracle worker

[hobson's choice]

Maybe for now, yeah. But we'll be back, if we don't make the CL this year, this club will act, and spend. Cause our board are stingy cunts, who don't like missing out on money. And they've gotten used to the CL money.

[Boss]

Nope.

Arsenal are still the third biggest club in England and once Wenger leaves (assuming he is replaced properly) we'll be back up there challenging for trophies.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

i think if you look at our history, we have never really dominated for a long time like united have etc. how long did we wait for a league title before 89? wenger brought a period of continual success and challenges that have raised our expectations to expect it every year. of course we will be succesful again, whether wenger will make us again is debatable.

Yoy make a good point there, but i think if we wnated too we could have won some silverware in these 6 years. Maybe if we took the Fa cup and CC properly we have trophies.

But i agree i think as gooners we have been spoilt, we think we have a right to be up there because of who we are. You can't live on pat glories as a club its what you do in the here and now that matters.

i don't give a two hoots about the last 6 seasons because its the past. But with this season expected better and hope we would have learned. Im sure we will have glory again in the next few seasons or come the end of this one. No reason we can't win the CC or Fa cups if we strenghen in jan. We could even win th Europa league if we go into that.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Graham wasn't far off in much less time that Wenger to be honest.

Wenger has been with us what 15 years, that's a long time and give a good manager that long I'm sure he'd have delivered a fair few trophies.

As for the stadium and prices, that's some sort of minor miracle I must admit as we're playing some horrible stuff at times and we collapse every season, it seems there are people who will pay regardless of what they get or how they are treated.

Thats called being a fan, and paying to watch the club they love no matter what happens. Don't make them mugs. Its not like they can't afford it is it. if they thought it was a waste of money or they were treated badly then they would not go simple.

[IBK]

Sorry mate but i disagree, i think Gervinho has looked the better signing so far and who is to say that Wenger could have done anything with Mata anyway. Everything is off kilter at the moment so i dont think personnel would change it

Mate - you perhaps misunderstand my point. I think that we have had, and still have a good group of players. But nothing has ignited the blue touch paper and really got them believing in themselves, believing in the club. There is a general negativity around the place that is visibly affecting our players. The main reason, IMO? its that nothing really exciting has happened for so long. A stadium project is exciting momentarily, but what football fans and players need a vibe to generate a sense of progress.

For years now, every time a Wenger project player has come through, he has left shortly afterwards. There has been a constant drain, that this Summer became too much to contend with.

Going in for Mata would have shown that we are still a big club that expects to win things - to counteract the Cesc and Nasri effect. The fact that we were pussies, and then caught with our pants down so late in the Summer is the main reason we are so bereft of confidence now.

Second, the reason I agree with Letters that the manager has lost the players is that this Summer saw him fail, almost embarrasingly, at what he is famous for being best at. I think they no longer trust him to win anything. A Mata type signing would have helped here.