Ozil - Do we need him?

[Niall_Quinn]

This is a very tip tappy goal, NQ. I can't speak for the overall nature of the game because I've only seen the highlights but if Iwobi takes a heavy touch after the first pass from Ozil or if Kante doesn't slip and nicks the ball off Iwobi after the second pass back form Ozil, the opportunity for the 2nd goal has gone and we're open for the counter.

It's great play from Iwobi to make that turn and slip Bellerin in. He spots the run and plays the risky pass. He could have played it back out ignoring the run to try and keep possession. We'll always be a team that plays possession football under Wenger but I don't know how his coaching can stop a player from picking out a good run when playing so deep in our opponents half. It has to come down to individual choices at some point.

For example, watch Theo's movement for the build up. He makes a good run into the box as soon as he sees Ozil getting a touch and he calls for the pass. But Ozil plays a simple pass to Iwobi who's not really in a great position to do damage with his back to goal. It results in the sort of tipp tappy moment you despise and would probably curse if that move breaks down. Could Ozil not have played the ball first time to Theo? Did he see the run? Is it too much of a difficult angle and pass? I don't know. Would a pass to his left for Monreal to whip in a cross be better? Who knows. But it results in a goal. Heck of a pass from Iwobi to find Bellerin, great movement from Theo and perfect cross from Hector. 2-0.

That goal is as far away from tippy tappy Wengerball MkII as you can get. This was Wengerball MkI, the original and still the best.

Four players in the box, moving the ball at high tempo, taking a risk with the pass, using width, having a player in a genuine striker's position as the ball comes into the box. All the things we normally don't do.

Under tippy tappy nobody would have moved into the box. They'd all have congregated around the edge of the box and held static positions, tapping pass after pass until the ball was eventually lost.

[Niall_Quinn]

It was very tippy tappy, just with cutting edge. No need for us to pretend it was something else entirely because we won and played well. It was quick, incisive, progressive passes that cut them open to devastating effect.

There is no cutting edge with our regular tippy tappy, that's the problem. Always the extra pass, always the safe option. We started falling into that pattern after the match was secure and some have already said it was a shame we didn't go for the jugular and dish out a heavier dose of payback (which we could have done), but the extra energy, pace and the direct play is what won us this game. The crappy chav defence helped, but they would have loved it and been in the comfort zone had we opted to play in our normal manner.

[Power n Glory]

That goal is as far away from tippy tappy Wengerball MkII as you can get. This was Wengerball MkI, the original and still the best.

Four players in the box, moving the ball at high tempo, taking a risk with the pass, using width, having a player in a genuine striker's position as the ball comes into the box. All the things we normally don't do.

Under tippy tappy nobody would have moved into the box. They'd all have congregated around the edge of the box and held static positions, tapping pass after pass until the ball was eventually lost.

You’re describing the same tactic just a different level of application. The exchanges of passes between Iwobi and Ozil aren’t necessary. But it worked. Our wingbacks always overlap and Theo always makes off the ball runs. It’s what he does most when we attack because he’s the one attacking player that has the least amount of passes and touches on the ball. Against a well organised defence, we’re sometimes shut out. It’s a thin line. As said, if Iwobi or Ozil lose get closed down quickly and lose the ball and we end up conceding, how is that different to when other teams sit back and hit us on the counter?

[Niall_Quinn]

You’re describing the same tactic just a different level of application. The exchanges of passes between Iwobi and Ozil aren’t necessary. But it worked. Our wingbacks always overlap and Theo always makes off the ball runs. It’s what he does most when we attack because he’s the one attacking player that has the least amount of passes and touches on the ball. Against a well organised defence, we’re sometimes shut out. It’s a thin line. As said, if Iwobi or Ozil lose get closed down quickly and lose the ball and we end up conceding, how is that different to when other teams sit back and hit us on the counter?

A "different level of application"? You mean it's the same thing but different?

If you are saying that we normally play with tempo and plenty of movement, and that our passing is usually decisive and aggressive and that we regularly get players into the kill zone in the opponent's box then I can't agree.

[Power n Glory]

A "different level of application"? You mean it's the same thing but different?

If you are saying that we normally play with tempo and plenty of movement, and that our passing is usually decisive and aggressive and that we regularly get players into the kill zone in the opponent's box then I can't agree.

‘Tippy tappy’ is our poor man version of Tika Taka. The way we try to attack and dominate teams with our passing has always been the same. The lack of movement and effort that we often see from the players comes either down to a lack of effort or we’ve come up against a frustrating defence that we can’t break down. Same tactic, just a different result. After a loss and when Wenger says we played with the handbreak on’ or ‘lacked a little sharpness’, the same characteristics you’re now applauding; the aggressive pinpoint passing, the movement….that’s what he’s looking for from the team. This is how ‘Wengerball’ ‘Tippy Tappy’ is always supposed to be played but it doesn’t always work out.

[Niall_Quinn]

‘Tippy tappy’ is our poor man version of Tika Taka. The way we try to attack and dominate teams with our passing has always been the same. The lack of movement and effort that we often see from the players comes either down to a lack of effort or we’ve come up against a frustrating defence that we can’t break down. Same tactic, just a different result. After a loss and when Wenger says we played with the handbreak on’ or ‘lacked a little sharpness’, the same characteristics you’re now applauding; the aggressive pinpoint passing, the movement….that’s what he’s looking for from the team. This is how ‘Wengerball’ ‘Tippy Tappy’ is always supposed to be played but it doesn’t always work out.

So Saturday was our usual game, except the chavs allowed us to play the way we want to but usually can't? Isn't that what BT was trying to paint?

Not buying it because very obviously we played differently on Saturday. We were much quicker to the ball, we committed far more players forward and we penetrated the penalty area for a change. And because the tempo was much higher is seemed to benefit our passing, almost as if we are better when we don't have time to think. Ozil dominated, though I guess you'll say he didn't. The team dominated and the chavs were overrun. Their defence may be disorganised but the pressure we placed on them played as much part as any troubles they are having on the training ground.

[Power n Glory]

So Saturday was our usual game, except the chavs allowed us to play the way we want to but usually can't? Isn't that what BT was trying to paint?

Not buying it because very obviously we played differently on Saturday. We were much quicker to the ball, we committed far more players forward and we penetrated the penalty area for a change. And because the tempo was much higher is seemed to benefit our passing, almost as if we are better when we don't have time to think. Ozil dominated, though I guess you'll say he didn't. The team dominated and the chavs were overrun. Their defence may be disorganised but the pressure we placed on them played as much part as any troubles they are having on the training ground.

You really don't understand the difference, do you?

On attack, we were playing the same tactics as we usually would but our players were just on their A game. I can't speak for Chelsea.

Do you think Wenger told them to play faster or intentionally tells them each game not to make runs and not to pass quickly? I mean, when have we not played with as many forward as possible? That's how we always attack but can get caught out when it goes wrong.

[I am invisible]

Sounds like you're both arguing the same point to me, and somehow managing to sound like you're disagreeing? Basically, play with purpose and (controlled) aggression and you'll make things happen, no matter what your gameplan is.

Look at the 3 goals we scored on saturday: one came from high pressing and forcing a mistake, one from tippy-tappy / one-touch passing around a packed area, and one from a swift counter from deep in our own half. One was a solo effort, one a team goal, and one a partnership. Tactically speaking, they were all completely different - the common theme to all of these goals was individual and collective hunger and desire to make something happen.

Great to see that we're capable of scoring such a variety of goals using the same XI players and the same shape - once we've fully integrated Xhaka into team, and we can lauch attacks from any depth and any width, I think we're gonna be really hard to keep out...

[Goonermerree]

Passing the ball is passing the ball. For me tippy, tappy is forward one, sideways, backwards, forwards, sideways, back to Cech, forward, forward, sideways, backwards, forwards. We might be lucky and be at the half way line by now. Meanwhile, the oppo has packed the box. We then tippy, tappy to the box and find no way through, so we tippy, tappy around the box and lose possession. Then it all starts again

On Saturday we moved forward with purpose and pace, yeah the Chavs defence was off, but we caused that in some part by being decisive.

[Power n Glory]

Sounds like you're both arguing the same point to me, and somehow managing to sound like you're disagreeing? Basically, play with purpose and (controlled) aggression and you'll make things happen, no matter what your gameplan is.

Look at the 3 goals we scored on saturday: one came from high pressing and forcing a mistake, one from tippy-tappy / one-touch passing around a packed area, and one from a swift counter from deep in our own half. Tactically speaking, they were all completely different - the common theme to all of these goals was individual and collective hunger and desire to make something happen.

Great to see that we're capable of scoring such a variety of goals using the same XI players and the same shape - once we've fully integrated Xhaka into team, and we can lauch attacks from any depth and any width, I think we're gonna be really hard to keep out...

That's just it. It's down to application and how the players approach the game. NQ makes it sound we abounded our main attacking principles for this one game. That's where we are on a different page.

If we'd have conceded two goals in the 2nd half from those counter attacks, he'd be cursing Wenger. If Kos and Bellerin hadn't made those last ditch challenges, if Batshuayi had scored his goal, can you imagine what NQ would say about the tactics? Wenger being negative?