Match Reaction vs Swansea City (away).

[Power n Glory]

I don't think it does discount DT or the rest of the ArsenalFanTV crowd, but there are 60,000 give or take who turn up to the Emirates each week......how many of them are part of the hardcore fans group who go to all the away games as much as the home ones?.....2-3 thousand?.

If you remove the amount of Tourist fans from the equation (token amount) and that leaves a lot of fans, now doubtless Stillman is basing his opinion on anecdotal evidence of the type of fans he sits around when he goes to the Emirates himself but i wouldn't be surprised if what he says does have a ring of truth to it.

And i do think this sums up this reticence to protest at the ground, oh and just so there is no confusion i wasn't in anyway stating you did think people should be compelled to kick up a fuss.....i just think short of putting a rod up people's backsides (which is i think counter productive) I'm just not sure how you can create the atmosphere you (and to be fair I as well) am looking for at the Emirates.

But hopefully i'm wrong.

One man can't assess the views of 60,000 people in the stadium. What’s not expressed in public can often been expressed in private...or social media.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

One man can't assess the views of 60,000 people in the stadium. What’s not expressed in public can often been expressed in private...or social media.

No but he can venture an opinion, albeit one that might be more supposition than anything.

What i personally think is

If you took a poll of everyone who considers themselves an Arsenal fan and asked them if Wenger should go at the end of the season if we don't win the title I think you would have a majority in favour of saying Yes but maybe only just (i'd be the majority)

If you took a poll of the same people and said should Wenger go at the end of the season if we fail to finish in the top four, than i think the majority would be much higher, it's hard for fans to shake off the mentality that top 4 is an achievement.

But i think a lot of fans also believe protesting equates to being disrespectful of Wenger and whilst they don't think he's the man to take us forward that he deserves some reverence, which i would agree is a self-defeating belief because only protests are going to get him to go.

But equally you could be right, it could be just fans not wanting to be the ones to start the protest, but i remember the protest against Norwich and the lukewarm way it was received by people in the ground and the condescension it received from football pundits who think any criticism of Wenger is tantamount to ingratitude but in the same breath talk about how constantly this Arsenal side has a weak mentality.

I think people don't feel strongly enough to not be easily discouraged from breaking into full protest.

[Power n Glory]

You really enjoy debating a bit too much. There isn't much point in getting into this sort of debate. An opinion about other fans supposed opinions...come on.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

You really enjoy debating a bit too much. There isn't much point in getting into this sort of debate. An opinion about other fans supposed opinions...come on.

I thought this was a discussion not a debate

I didn't turn it into a debate, i just said this is what Tim Stillman said and whilst as you said he can't speak for everyone who goes to the Emirates on each home game, i wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't some truth in what he said.

I wasn't even going as far as to say i think i'm right and you are wrong, you could be right....and i hope you are. I'm just generally not encouraged to think there will be the kind of walk out or match day protest that we need to see.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I've walked away from it
Lots have on here actually. OK, I keep up with results here and there but not like I used to. I don't even know who we're playing next.
Used to go to every home game. It is partly the Groundhog Day, partly just moving on in life.
I don't think I'll ever be completely disconnected with it but if it gave me as much pain as it seems to give NQ I wouldn't watch it as closely as he seems to.

That.

And also that your wife doesn't want you to go.

[GP]

That.

And also that your wife doesn't want you to go.

[Chippy]

Not interested at all in the top four race, it's the title or don't care. The title is Chelseas' so don't care

The title is between Chelsea and the Scum. End of.

[Letters]

And also that your wife doesn't want you to go.

Pretty much

[Letters]

Why would you assume that because you've made a choice that other people would as well

Football is an addiction. I watch fewer and fewer games live, but I always need to know the score.

I didn't assume anything, I was just asking the question. Previously you said it wasn't an option for a fan. It is.
And I don't agree that with other addictions people get no pleasure from them. They obviously do at the time even if there are bad consequences later.
With NQ he doesn't seem to derive any pleasure from it at all no matter the result.

The point PnG making about Wenger leaving if people stop going en masse. I agree that is the only way to affect change but I see the reason slightly differently. Wenger cares about success. I can't be bothered debating that, he may take a little too much pride in top 4 but of course he wants to do better, why would any manager at that level not want to be winning trophies? The board though...so long as the money keeps rolling in they couldn't give a monkeys so IMO the only way to get them to change anything is to cut off the source of the money which is us, ultimately. The problem is a lot of the real fans have already walked away or been priced out but there's a very long queue of tourists ready and willing to take their place.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I didn't assume anything, I was just asking the question. Previously you said it wasn't an option for a fan. It is.
And I don't agree that with other addictions people get no pleasure from them. They obviously do at the time even if there are bad consequences later.
With NQ he doesn't seem to derive any pleasure from it at all no matter the result.

The point PnG making about Wenger leaving if people stop going en masse. I agree that is the only way to affect change but I see the reason slightly differently. Wenger cares about success. I can't be bothered debating that, he may take a little too much pride in top 4 but of course he wants to do better, why would any manager at that level not want to be winning trophies? The board though...so long as the money keeps rolling in they couldn't give a monkeys so IMO the only way to get them to change anything is to cut off the source of the money which is us, ultimately. The problem is a lot of the real fans have already walked away or been priced out but there's a very long queue of tourists ready and willing to take their place.

Are you honestly arguing that we are the main source of the money?

Corporate sponsorship and TV deals are the main part of the money, so in that sense the only fans that can affect the outcome are those fans who watch from home and don't buy the subscription packages.....whilst i agree it wouldn't look good for a half empty stadium week in, week out it won't affect the club financially whatsoever.

An addiction is a compulsion, and sometimes as often as not you don't get pleasure out of the thing you have a compulsion to do.....you might need to understand a bit more about psychological addiction before making such a statement.

As for Wenger it's less about lack of ambition, it's more that he is convinced he doesn't have to change a thing and can still bring success.....according to himself he is his harshest critic but with the best will in the world i can be self-critical and see where i am going wrong with any given task but it often needs outside input to give me a fresh look on how to do things, he i don't think will listen to any voice that isn't his own, plus we mention addiction managing this club is a compulsion for him he spends more time here than any other of the playing or coaching staff and has very little going on apart from punditry work in France and i think he would be able to change his parameters of how he defined success simply because he is afraid of retiring.

So if we finish 4th way off the pace, he will say to himself...we were unlucky (as per usual) we just need to keep doing what we are doing and it will come, and this same mentality with him permeates season after season.