Arsene to "rise above" fan nonsense

[IBK]

Its still higher than the UK..

See you were competing at least but I'm afraid that isn't good....

[Olivier's xmas twist]

FY

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

What I meant was that fans support clubs, good and bad, because it fills a need they have to participate in something outside their normal reality. That's why they tend to stick around, even when things aren't necessarily so great, aka fat girlfriend and alcoholic friend in your analogy.

And my name's not Richard btw.

Yup and that's what I kind of have a problem with, the idea that supporting a team is that simplistic. For example the first point you made about people feeling the team needs their presence in order to progress is to me quite valid. I know a lot of gooners and more so other fans of other clubs who believe if they don't attend every game or watch it live their team is immediately at a disadvantage. Same way I know fans who use their weekends supporting their teams as escapism from reality as you pointed out. But I know far more people who combine both and far more complex reasons for supporting their clubs- which was why I brought the analogy of the fat girlfriend- so again, if I had a fat girlfriend, an alcoholic best friend or an invalid dad, would you really ask me why I kept pursuing a relationship with any/all three of them? I don't think you would and I don't think anyone needs to to pigeonhole fans or disrespect the experience by trying to compartmentalize it. It's complex and explaining why I am a fan would probably come out as unintelligible as me explaining why I loved someone.
Also the point you made that I as a gooner, should consider myself lucky or grateful that I don't support a smaller club that plays shit football, sorry, but f*ck that. He took his club for better or worse, I did the same, end of. Again if my girlfriend happened to be really pretty/rich you don't think constantly reminding me to appreciate those facts could go down the wrong way with me? Yes there is banter and animosity between fans but that should never becloud the mutual respect we should have for one another.
I am sorry if I came at you too strong but f*ck it, I do not in ANYWAY feel fortunate or privileged to be a fan, let alone an Arsenal fan. I do not feel fortunate to have witnessed some good football under AW, because even if it had been painful to watch, as it has been personally for me for a while now, I'd still be doing my thing as a fan. I do however feel fortunate to share this passion with so many others. Pre-Wenger I don't remember ever hearing this smug shit of being fortunate to be an Arsenal fan, and this kind of reasoning among a majority of the fans IMO is what has allowed the board and AW to successfully take us for such a mediocre ride for so long.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

And just so I don't get accused of inventing stuff:

"Perhaps we gave our fans
too much by winning the
Double. Once you've eaten
caviar, it is difficult to go
back to sausages."

Arsene Wenger, Arsenal
manager, after the
Arsenal fans booed a 1-1 draw
with Middlesbrough in
November 1998

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/q...k-1189408.html

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Its still higher than the UK..

It's.

[Marc Overmars]

[Coney]

It's.

... Monty Python's Flying Circus.

[Unai Tea]

Yup and that's what I kind of have a problem with, the idea that supporting a team is that simplistic. For example the first point you made about people feeling the team needs their presence in order to progress is to me quite valid. I know a lot of gooners and more so other fans of other clubs who believe if they don't attend every game or watch it live their team is immediately at a disadvantage. Same way I know fans who use their weekends supporting their teams as escapism from reality as you pointed out. But I know far more people who combine both and far more complex reasons for supporting their clubs- which was why I brought the analogy of the fat girlfriend- so again, if I had a fat girlfriend, an alcoholic best friend or an invalid dad, would you really ask me why I kept pursuing a relationship with any/all three of them? I don't think you would and I don't think anyone needs to to pigeonhole fans or disrespect the experience by trying to compartmentalize it. It's complex and explaining why I am a fan would probably come out as unintelligible as me explaining why I loved someone.
Also the point you made that I as a gooner, should consider myself lucky or grateful that I don't support a smaller club that plays shit football, sorry, but f*ck that. He took his club for better or worse, I did the same, end of. Again if my girlfriend happened to be really pretty/rich you don't think constantly reminding me to appreciate those facts could go down the wrong way with me? Yes there is banter and animosity between fans but that should never becloud the mutual respect we should have for one another.
I am sorry if I came at you too strong but f*ck it, I do not in ANYWAY feel fortunate or privileged to be a fan, let alone an Arsenal fan. I do not feel fortunate to have witnessed some good football under AW, because even if it had been painful to watch, as it has been personally for me for a while now, I'd still be doing my thing as a fan. I do however feel fortunate to share this passion with so many others. Pre-Wenger I don't remember ever hearing this smug shit of being fortunate to be an Arsenal fan, and this kind of reasoning among a majority of the fans IMO is what has allowed the board and AW to successfully take us for such a mediocre ride for so long.

You confuse what is essentially a real relationship with a fat girlfriend, alcoholic friend and invalid dad with a simulacrum of reality. You participate in 'arsenal football club' but there is no real relationship other than supplier and consumer. You can dress it up in any number of ways but that's what it is and why some people can't get their heads around the fact that the club seems to lack respect for its fans. How much respect should McDonald's show to its consumers? Why is Arsenal any different? The only real difference is probably you feel less emotionally attached to your Big Mac than to the players of the team and the various trappings, paraphenalia and regalia that come with the 'Arsenal Football Club' hyperreality. At McDonald's you pay for food, at Arsenal (or any other club) you pay for a spectacle and the emotions you feel, good or bad, are what you pay for to a varying degree.

In short, Arsenal is not your fat girlfriend and never will be. It may 'feel' similar - and you may get a stiffy at the thought of the fat russian disrobing - but that's not really the case. The reality of Arsenal Football Club is the team and manager and staff who create the spectacle and the activity we all choose to participate in. And I'm saying that the true, inner reality of Arsenal Football Club shouldn't concern itself with the fans and making the simulacrum seem more real, but rather they should get on with trying to achieve succcess on the pitch. In essence, Wenger says that the team should rise above fan displeasure at what they see as being a poor product or a failing relationship but instead, concern themselves with themselves and focus on the inner reality of what the club is about, i.e. what happens on the pitch. Basically, your feelings, real or imagined, shouldn't come into it for the team. They should win because they're athletes focussed on winning not because fans have boo'd or cheered.

And I never said anyone should feel fortunate or blessed to be an Arsenal fan. We all pay our way, to a greater or lesser extent, and generally we could have been stuck with worse clubs. But good or bad club, football or cricket, the general relationship between fan and sportsclub s essentially the same - there's an inner reality and there's a more accesible hyperreality which caters to viewing participants/consumers of the spectacle.

[Power n Glory]

You confuse what is essentially a real relationship with a fat girlfriend, alcoholic friend and invalid dad with a simulacrum of reality. You participate in 'arsenal football club' but there is no real relationship other than supplier and consumer. You can dress it up in any number of ways but that's what it is and why some people can't get their heads around the fact that the club seems to lack respect for its fans. How much respect should McDonald's show to its consumers? Why is Arsenal any different? The only real difference is probably you feel less emotionally attached to your Big Mac than to the players of the team and the various trappings, paraphenalia and regalia that come with the 'Arsenal Football Club' hyperreality. At McDonald's you pay for food, at Arsenal (or any other club) you pay for a spectacle and the emotions you feel, good or bad, are what you pay for to a varying degree.

In short, Arsenal is not your fat girlfriend and never will be. It may 'feel' similar - and you may get a stiffy at the thought of the fat russian disrobing - but that's not really the case. The reality of Arsenal Football Club is the team and manager and staff who create the spectacle and the activity we all choose to participate in. And I'm saying that the true, inner reality of Arsenal Football Club shouldn't concern itself with the fans and making the simulacrum seem more real, but rather they should get on with trying to achieve succcess on the pitch. In essence, Wenger says that the team should rise above fan displeasure at what they see as being a poor product or a failing relationship but instead, concern themselves with themselves and focus on the inner reality of what the club is about, i.e. what happens on the pitch. Basically, your feelings, real or imagined, shouldn't come into it for the team. They should win because they're athletes focussed on winning not because fans have boo'd or cheered.

And I never said anyone should feel fortunate or blessed to be an Arsenal fan. We all pay our way, to a greater or lesser extent, and generally we could have been stuck with worse clubs. But good or bad club, football or cricket, the general relationship between fan and sportsclub s essentially the same - there's an inner reality and there's a more accesible hyperreality which caters to viewing participants/consumers of the spectacle.

Too much French philosophy, my friend.

But you're right and on the money.

[LDG]

You confuse what is essentially a real relationship with a fat girlfriend, alcoholic friend and invalid dad with a simulacrum of reality. You participate in 'arsenal football club' but there is no real relationship other than supplier and consumer. You can dress it up in any number of ways but that's what it is and why some people can't get their heads around the fact that the club seems to lack respect for its fans. How much respect should McDonald's show to its consumers? Why is Arsenal any different? The only real difference is probably you feel less emotionally attached to your Big Mac than to the players of the team and the various trappings, paraphenalia and regalia that come with the 'Arsenal Football Club' hyperreality. At McDonald's you pay for food, at Arsenal (or any other club) you pay for a spectacle and the emotions you feel, good or bad, are what you pay for to a varying degree.

In short, Arsenal is not your fat girlfriend and never will be. It may 'feel' similar - and you may get a stiffy at the thought of the fat russian disrobing - but that's not really the case. The reality of Arsenal Football Club is the team and manager and staff who create the spectacle and the activity we all choose to participate in. And I'm saying that the true, inner reality of Arsenal Football Club shouldn't concern itself with the fans and making the simulacrum seem more real, but rather they should get on with trying to achieve succcess on the pitch. In essence, Wenger says that the team should rise above fan displeasure at what they see as being a poor product or a failing relationship but instead, concern themselves with themselves and focus on the inner reality of what the club is about, i.e. what happens on the pitch. Basically, your feelings, real or imagined, shouldn't come into it for the team. They should win because they're athletes focussed on winning not because fans have boo'd or cheered.

And I never said anyone should feel fortunate or blessed to be an Arsenal fan. We all pay our way, to a greater or lesser extent, and generally we could have been stuck with worse clubs. But good or bad club, football or cricket, the general relationship between fan and sportsclub s essentially the same - there's an inner reality and there's a more accesible hyperreality which caters to viewing participants/consumers of the spectacle.

Hmmm. Not so sure mate. Arsenal have McDonald'sed it up over the last 20 years, but prior to that, being a football club wasn't ALL about making money and business. You paid your entrace fee, yes, but it didn't go on transfers and wages and super-stadia. Local communities set up the club, and participated in activities WITH the club, WITH the players, be it at the pub, watching them play etc. The gate money was part of your membership to keep the club running.

It's called a club for a reason. It's like local sports and social clubs we go to, to watch our kids play, to have a game of snooker, to socialise.

Arsenal Football Club was built with that purpose in mind. It's more tribal than it is a hyperreality. Your Hyperreality is all about todays game, in the here and now, and what football is as a global brand.

You pay no heed to tribal instincts, like it is to be a patriot for example. And you ignore how the club has been built, how communities come together, how friends are made, and also how players react to that. It's only players of the last few years who have no concept of what it was to be part of a club, are money and trophy obsessed that back your view up. Not the teams gone by who lived and breathed their club, often staying for their career, and interacting with local communities.

It is a real relationship. A social one and a tribal one. Maybe not to the tourist of today's game, but certainly fromyears gone by....and that element still remains.