Zagreb 2 - Arsenal 1 Match Reaction Thread

[Niall_Quinn]

You should stick around, it's so nice to have a grown up to talk to.

Good grief! It's puke inducing.

People have been saying (not too far from word for word) the same to you for months now, years in some cases.

[Kano]

You should stick around, it's so nice to have a grown up to talk to.

I basically agree with a lot of the above. I'd still like to leave it a little longer in this season before jumping to too many conclusions although I agree about the Groundhog Day nature of the last 10 years. That said, I've said endlessly why I see some glimmers of hope - players like Ozil and Sanchez, results like Old Trafford Cup Quarter Final and the FA Cup wins (which I don't accept were luck, I agree to an extent about some of the team being knocked out but there's always an element of luck in a Cup and last year we beat Utd away, the season before we played 3 of the top 6 - all at home, but still).

The last 2 years we've won the Cup and finished 4th then retained the Cup and finished 3rd. There have been frustrations but overall it's not been a bad 2 years. Last year we only finished below the two sides who have billionaires propping them up. People always say the billionaire thing is an "excuse" but the fact is they've mopped up most of the titles between them since they got going. Only Fergie has bested them both and as good as I think Wenger is, he's no Fergie. I do think now we have the new financial deals in place we can give them a run for their money though. As much as we all want to push on for the biggest prizes I think the level of moaning and hyperbole on here is way out of proportion to the situation. We lose, people moan. We win, people just moan about the performance instead.

I see the Chelsea game as a bigger indication of how this season will go than anything we've seen so far. We've not flown out of the blocks this season but only City have. Chelsea have had poor results so far but our record there is horrible of late, if we could win there it would show something about this team.

Ultimately I agree Wenger should be sacked it we don't start competing for the league. But I don't think he deserves the level of criticism much less the disrespect he gets on here.

This is an issue I have put to you a few times and not once have you addressed it. Part of me thinks you are avoiding it so I thought I'd try one last time. As NQ has said above, many people have put forward well composed arguments, alongside some of the jokes that keep this place worth returning to. I've consistently read in your posts the mantra of how beating City and Utd away, our 'magnificent' run in the second half of the season and I'm assuming now this Chelsea game would be added to that if we got a point, not even a victory.

I've pointed out that over the past two seasons (which comprises this squad) where our issue in the league has come from, which is against the top 8. A group that make up the better teams in the league, a set of teams that have remained consistently in place over the past two seasons. With a small group outside the top quad of teams that offer more of threat to the top four and are in the running for a Europa position. So overall, clubs with a higher standard of player than everyone else below.

The run in the second half of the season illustrated similar failings, beating those in the lower half of the table and consistently dropping points against the better teams. As we did in the first half of the season. As we did in the previous season too. The amount of points we collected over those two seasons against the top 8 is also very similar, both around 17/18 points from 42. Saying that we tailed off at the end of last season because the focus was the FA Cup Final can't be true either - because in 13/14 we won our last five games of the season, unsurprisingly all against teams in the bottom half of the table. Last season in our last five before the final we got 7 from 9 against the lower teams and 1 from 6 against those in the top 8. It's hard to ignore the pattern.

It is absolutely clear that this squad and manager struggles to figure out ways to beat the better teams. That is a combination of his failings and a weak squad. Games against the top four have been a microcosm of that over the past number of seasons but when you extend it out to the other strong teams, the problem persists. Go out further to Europe and we all know that once we get beyond the group stage and the quality increases, we fail to step up.

So bearing all that in mind I'm curious how to know where these signs of progression in the league are being illustrated from your point of view. We may have new financial deals in place but if they are not being utilised to maximum effect it doesn't really offer much help. People do complain about performances when we win - and really, not just on this forum, you should go and look - because we are not playing very well. Doing just enough to get by, which doesn't inspire confidence in fans in a period when all the talk before the season started was about challenging for the title. We hardly look like a team that are capable of sustaining strong performances across an entire campaign. That is why people are worried. We look fragile and just as capable of winning or pulling out a result like Wednesday, or West Ham. We have been living on a myth that we still play great football, fed to the mainstream by numbskull pundits who churn out the easy and safe one-liners. If you watch our games consistently, there is nothing very exciting about the mostly slow, pedestrian approach to our play. That is another reason why fans complain about the performances. It all looks and feels very familiar to the patterns of previous seasons and the facts exist in our results to prove that is the case too.

[Power n Glory]

We already know Bellerin has great recovery speed. We knew Theo could finish and was one of the fastest players in football. Ramsey's engine and determination made him a first teamer before the ogre at Stoke broke his leg. And before Jack was effed, we saw his ability to beat guys in tight spaces. The great talents show quality when they are young. That is why clubs sign young talents. To accentuate their strength and boost up the areas they are weak at to make them a more complete player.

By you saying Ox isnt outstanding at anything shows that you dont rate him much either. He is basically Matthew Taylor. Scores the great goal from time to time but offers nothing else.

I don’t know if I’d count pace, stamina and determination as a talent or an indicator that they’ll be great in the future . That’s just genetics and a mentality. It’s not even something required to become a great football player. Ryo is supposed to be as quick as Walcott and just look where he is. We’ve had countless quick players that end up playing at Championship level so I wouldn’t even count that. Technical ability is more important to me and you’re right to point out Jack. He looked a tidy player. But it’s not as if Ox has a poor touch and can’t dribble either. He’s got the physical attributes such as pace and power, technically he’s pretty good. I don’t worry about his touch or dribbling, for me he’s a raw talent and it’s about sharpening up his decisions. He looks a far better player than what Theo and Ramsey looked when they first arrived but whether he develops into one is another question.

Also, Theo’s finishing was ok but never outstanding. He’s had to sharpen up.

[Power n Glory]

This is an issue I have put to you a few times and not once have you addressed it. Part of me thinks you are avoiding it so I thought I'd try one last time. As NQ has said above, many people have put forward well composed arguments, alongside some of the jokes that keep this place worth returning to. I've consistently read in your posts the mantra of how beating City and Utd away, our 'magnificent' run in the second half of the season and I'm assuming now this Chelsea game would be added to that if we got a point, not even a victory.

I've pointed out that over the past two seasons (which comprises this squad) where our issue in the league has come from, which is against the top 8. A group that make up the better teams in the league, a set of teams that have remained consistently in place over the past two seasons. With a small group outside the top quad of teams that offer more of threat to the top four and are in the running for a Europa position. So overall, clubs with a higher standard of player than everyone else below.

The run in the second half of the season illustrated similar failings, beating those in the lower half of the table and consistently dropping points against the better teams. As we did in the first half of the season. As we did in the previous season too. The amount of points we collected over those two seasons against the top 8 is also very similar, both around 17/18 points from 42. Saying that we tailed off at the end of last season because the focus was the FA Cup Final can't be true either - because in 13/14 we won our last five games of the season, unsurprisingly all against teams in the bottom half of the table. Last season in our last five before the final we got 7 from 9 against the lower teams and 1 from 6 against those in the top 8. It's hard to ignore the pattern.

It is absolutely clear that this squad and manager struggles to figure out ways to beat the better teams. That is a combination of his failings and a weak squad. Games against the top four have been a microcosm of that over the past number of seasons but when you extend it out to the other strong teams, the problem persists. Go out further to Europe and we all know that once we get beyond the group stage and the quality increases, we fail to step up.

So bearing all that in mind I'm curious how to know where these signs of progression in the league are being illustrated from your point of view. We may have new financial deals in place but if they are not being utilised to maximum effect it doesn't really offer much help. People do complain about performances when we win - and really, not just on this forum, you should go and look - because we are not playing very well. Doing just enough to get by, which doesn't inspire confidence in fans in a period when all the talk before the season started was about challenging for the title. We hardly look like a team that are capable of sustaining strong performances across an entire campaign. That is why people are worried. We look fragile and just as capable of winning or pulling out a result like Wednesday, or West Ham. We have been living on a myth that we still play great football, fed to the mainstream by numbskull pundits who churn out the easy and safe one-liners. If you watch our games consistently, there is nothing very exciting about the mostly slow, pedestrian approach to our play. That is another reason why fans complain about the performances. It all looks and feels very familiar to the patterns of previous seasons and the facts exist in our results to prove that is the case too.

Good luck.

[Maestro]

This is an issue I have put to you a few times and not once have you addressed it. Part of me thinks you are avoiding it so I thought I'd try one last time. As NQ has said above, many people have put forward well composed arguments, alongside some of the jokes that keep this place worth returning to. I've consistently read in your posts the mantra of how beating City and Utd away, our 'magnificent' run in the second half of the season and I'm assuming now this Chelsea game would be added to that if we got a point, not even a victory.

I've pointed out that over the past two seasons (which comprises this squad) where our issue in the league has come from, which is against the top 8. A group that make up the better teams in the league, a set of teams that have remained consistently in place over the past two seasons. With a small group outside the top quad of teams that offer more of threat to the top four and are in the running for a Europa position. So overall, clubs with a higher standard of player than everyone else below.

The run in the second half of the season illustrated similar failings, beating those in the lower half of the table and consistently dropping points against the better teams. As we did in the first half of the season. As we did in the previous season too. The amount of points we collected over those two seasons against the top 8 is also very similar, both around 17/18 points from 42. Saying that we tailed off at the end of last season because the focus was the FA Cup Final can't be true either - because in 13/14 we won our last five games of the season, unsurprisingly all against teams in the bottom half of the table. Last season in our last five before the final we got 7 from 9 against the lower teams and 1 from 6 against those in the top 8. It's hard to ignore the pattern.

It is absolutely clear that this squad and manager struggles to figure out ways to beat the better teams. That is a combination of his failings and a weak squad. Games against the top four have been a microcosm of that over the past number of seasons but when you extend it out to the other strong teams, the problem persists. Go out further to Europe and we all know that once we get beyond the group stage and the quality increases, we fail to step up.

So bearing all that in mind I'm curious how to know where these signs of progression in the league are being illustrated from your point of view. We may have new financial deals in place but if they are not being utilised to maximum effect it doesn't really offer much help. People do complain about performances when we win - and really, not just on this forum, you should go and look - because we are not playing very well. Doing just enough to get by, which doesn't inspire confidence in fans in a period when all the talk before the season started was about challenging for the title. We hardly look like a team that are capable of sustaining strong performances across an entire campaign. That is why people are worried. We look fragile and just as capable of winning or pulling out a result like Wednesday, or West Ham. We have been living on a myth that we still play great football, fed to the mainstream by numbskull pundits who churn out the easy and safe one-liners. If you watch our games consistently, there is nothing very exciting about the mostly slow, pedestrian approach to our play. That is another reason why fans complain about the performances. It all looks and feels very familiar to the patterns of previous seasons and the facts exist in our results to prove that is the case too.

you have the patience of a saint

[Marc Overmars]

I think it's fair to say Oxlade relies more on his athleticism rather than technical ability but he's 22 and been dogged with injuries, he's shown enough to suggest he can develop here. Far too early to write him off.

[Niall_Quinn]

The idea the fans who are pointing out the negatives that are ongoing, season after season, are somehow lesser fans, or spoiled, or unappreciative of the positives is pure bullshit. What's the point of football from a fan's perspective? To compete and be entertained in the process. I haven't seen anyone demand we WIN the title, what I see is people demanding we COMPETE. Supposedly we have one of the top managers in the world, supposedly we have some of the best players in the world, supposedly we have a pile of cash coming in from hard pressed fans, a growing list of sponsors and a ballooning TV deal. Everything is in place to at least compete and there's plenty in place to do that in an entertaining fashion too. This manager and these players are not achieving what they ought to be achieving given the advantages they have at their disposal. Let's make excuses about dopers after we have ensured we've applied 100% effort ourselves, until then such excuses are lame and nothing more than a way to hide our own inadequacies. Let's not wave FA cups around the place as an excuse either. Has there been any fan that didn't enjoy and appreciate winning the cup? But it can't be used to beat the fans when they point out the failures elsewhere. And neither can fans be accused of impatience. Surely we're some of the most patient fans around, having swapped titles and glorious football for a decade of financial planning and rebuilding in order to actually achieve something at the end of that process. Patience is not eternal and nor should our manager have an eternity to deliver a result on the back of the considerable assets at his disposal. The game against Zagreb was like a summary of all the problems this manager brings on himself, just as was last season's game against Monaco - and so many others before. The asset pile keeps getting bigger, the results remain stagnant. So when is it valid on the eyes of the eternal believers to wake up and say, wait a minute, what the fuck?

Our mollycoddled manager and his little darlings need a boot up their arses now. What's the difference between Ferguson and Wenger? That boot. The one Beckham got in the head when he wasn't giving 100%. This is sport, it's not social work.

[Niall_Quinn]

This is an issue I have put to you a few times and not once have you addressed it. Part of me thinks you are avoiding it so I thought I'd try one last time. As NQ has said above, many people have put forward well composed arguments, alongside some of the jokes that keep this place worth returning to. I've consistently read in your posts the mantra of how beating City and Utd away, our 'magnificent' run in the second half of the season and I'm assuming now this Chelsea game would be added to that if we got a point, not even a victory.

I've pointed out that over the past two seasons (which comprises this squad) where our issue in the league has come from, which is against the top 8. A group that make up the better teams in the league, a set of teams that have remained consistently in place over the past two seasons. With a small group outside the top quad of teams that offer more of threat to the top four and are in the running for a Europa position. So overall, clubs with a higher standard of player than everyone else below.

The run in the second half of the season illustrated similar failings, beating those in the lower half of the table and consistently dropping points against the better teams. As we did in the first half of the season. As we did in the previous season too. The amount of points we collected over those two seasons against the top 8 is also very similar, both around 17/18 points from 42. Saying that we tailed off at the end of last season because the focus was the FA Cup Final can't be true either - because in 13/14 we won our last five games of the season, unsurprisingly all against teams in the bottom half of the table. Last season in our last five before the final we got 7 from 9 against the lower teams and 1 from 6 against those in the top 8. It's hard to ignore the pattern.

It is absolutely clear that this squad and manager struggles to figure out ways to beat the better teams. That is a combination of his failings and a weak squad. Games against the top four have been a microcosm of that over the past number of seasons but when you extend it out to the other strong teams, the problem persists. Go out further to Europe and we all know that once we get beyond the group stage and the quality increases, we fail to step up.

So bearing all that in mind I'm curious how to know where these signs of progression in the league are being illustrated from your point of view. We may have new financial deals in place but if they are not being utilised to maximum effect it doesn't really offer much help. People do complain about performances when we win - and really, not just on this forum, you should go and look - because we are not playing very well. Doing just enough to get by, which doesn't inspire confidence in fans in a period when all the talk before the season started was about challenging for the title. We hardly look like a team that are capable of sustaining strong performances across an entire campaign. That is why people are worried. We look fragile and just as capable of winning or pulling out a result like Wednesday, or West Ham. We have been living on a myth that we still play great football, fed to the mainstream by numbskull pundits who churn out the easy and safe one-liners. If you watch our games consistently, there is nothing very exciting about the mostly slow, pedestrian approach to our play. That is another reason why fans complain about the performances. It all looks and feels very familiar to the patterns of previous seasons and the facts exist in our results to prove that is the case too.

Final 21 games in the run-in last season, if you exclude the last 6 and game #2.

Arsenal P14 W14 Pts42
Crewe P14 W0 Pts0
Manchester All-Stars Primary School P14 W0 Pts0

PLUS the FA Cup

PLUS we beat city in that game where the players told Wenger to fuck off

PLUS we finished higher than Wigan and if you asked their fans if they'd swap places with us what do you think they would say?

This season - above chelsea - the champions.

We're in the CL for the 21st season.

We've signed Ozil and Alexis and, while it's disappointing we haven't added any bullets to this gun, it's impossible to sign a striker.

We have Coquelin coming through who is so good he can play two roles in the middle while the rest of the team rush up-field in a haphazard manner.

But Wenger has to go

It's all Wenger's fault

Wenger's dick isn't delicious

[Penguin]

We already know Bellerin has great recovery speed. We knew Theo could finish and was one of the fastest players in football. Ramsey's engine and determination made him a first teamer before the ogre at Stoke broke his leg. And before Jack was effed, we saw his ability to beat guys in tight spaces. The great talents show quality when they are young. That is why clubs sign young talents. To accentuate their strength and boost up the areas they are weak at to make them a more complete player.

By you saying Ox isnt outstanding at anything shows that you dont rate him much either. He is basically Matthew Taylor. Scores the great goal from time to time but offers nothing else.

Nonsense, he has the combination of pace, strength and dribbling ability that can can give full backs nightmares. To say he has no outstanding talents is just not true. He's still rough around the edges but the talent is definitely there. It's far too early to start writing him off. You can point to his age but the constant injuries have slowed down his progress.

Wenger has also slowed down his development by trying to turn him into another safe passing CAM clone. At Southampton he was known as a direct winger with a venomous shot. We saw that when he first signed for us too, he really can hit them. Then Wenger worked his magic and made Ox another cog in the tippy tappy machine instead of focusing on his two biggest strengths - his dribbling and his long range shooting. The good thing is that last season the direct runs were back and he ended up being one of our most dangerous attackers when he got a run in the team. Ox is the only player in our squad, other than Alexis, that can do that.

The defensive mistakes really need to stop but they are things that can be coached out. It's simple really, just stop taking risks in our own half. We've had the same problem with most of our young players including Ramsey and Wilshere. Take him to the side, give him a slap on the wrist and tell him that's why he's not starting the next game. It's frustrating and costly right now, but it's not a long term problem.

The two things that WILL make or break him as a player are his end product and his injuries. There's nothing that can be done about the injuries except pray that he doesn't do a Diaby on us. But I think there is potential there for goals. He knows he needs to score more, he even set himself a target of a goal or assist per game. That's ambitious (just a bit ) but I think that's half the battle and if it gets him shooting more we'll see more goals. It's worth noting that a lot of players become goalscorers at their early to mid twenties: Ronaldo was 23 and Bale was 22, and they both had at least 2 or 3 seasons as regulars in the team first. This is the right time for Ox to start.

[IBK]

I'm not in this camp yet but I see where you are coming from. Ox is as responsible for his game as his manager, just like Theo and Ramsey. Players need guidance but they also have to take responsibility and learn wherever they can. It's injury record doesn't help him and as it stands if he left, I wouldn't lose sleep over it because under the current manager, he is only ever going to improve so much. Whether he'll gain those much needed improvements to his game elsewhere I don't know but it's too early to make a final call on him - at least he's making it onto the pitch more than Wilshere.

On Wenger's ability to improve players - Wilshere is a prime example. I do not rate Roy Hodgson - but the way Wilshere played for England prior to his latest injury embarrased our manager. As for the Ox, I fear for him a bit. I don't think he is being coached properly, and with Wenger's propensity to play Ramsey out of position where Ox plays (another player who has gone backwards from being player of the season a couple of years ago) I wonder whether he needs to move on to realise his potential fully. Theo has been with us since we first moved to the Emirates (can you believe that), and I think that another manager would have made him into a better player than he is.