Is Wenger stale or is it us?

[cricketsi]

3. FACT: ade is being flogged by city because he had a falling out with mancini; NOT because he wasn't producing. Mancini had his own ideas when he took over. Even so, Ade did a lot better at Spurs last season than all our other strikers combined! So to suggest he is being flogged by city for not producing is a distortion of the facts. Therefore my point that he is performing adequately elsewhere is sound and valid.

While I agree with your assessment that RVP's importance last season shouldn't be downplayed I don't think that this is a fact - I don't believe Adebayor is good enough for Man City at the level they want to be at and that is the main reason for him not being retained. If he had Aguero or Tevez's ability they'd accommodate his attitude and ego problems. The fact is he can only score goals when they're laid on a plate for him - 100% of his goals came from clear cut chances and even his conversion rate of those isn't great. See link:

http://www.eplindex.com/14273/best-p...-analysis.html

[IBK]

Matey, I am only challenging the relevance and validity of the claims/argument you are looking to make. Just because you deem them to be sensible doesn't automatically make them so. So I shall try again:

1. RVP is a quality player -- whether he can be considered a goal machine or not is irrelevant; His quality in a mediocre team was our only redeeming factor last season. The quality of the goals he engineered for himself and the efficiency with which he dispatched those created for him were NO fluke. And I am not talking about how essential he was to us; I am refering to his quality as a player.

I have no issue with this statement at all - as I have never argued that RVP is not a quality player.

2. You claim he may have benefited from a primarily attacking team. I argue there is no basis for that claim. Why? Because we were not even the top scoring team last season. And we were quite a few goals off the top of the scoring chart. So for RVP to claim the scoring title is actually quite remarkable --- and mainly speaks to his quality than to the team he plays in. The same quality that we lost in Henry,Fabregas,Nasri, etc. And Just because we can't defend doesn't make us an attacking team in the main.

I don't follow your argument. The fact that we were not top scorers does not mean that we are not set up as an attacking team. We are undoubtedly an attacking, as opposed to a counter-attacking team. I don't think you can ignore the fact that RVP was a) played as the sole focal point of our attack, and b) was our captain and the player that all the others looked to when assessing his performance.

You have made a mistake in assuming that because I have questioned whether, like Adebayor, he will be quite as prolific away from Arsenal, this means that his scoring record for us is not remarkable. Of course it is, and I have never suggested otherwise. This is the problem with the way views become polarised on a MB like this. Pose a question in relation to a favourite player and you are being laughably critical. Point out that a 'pariah' player may have some redeeming features and you are an idiot.

The proof of the pudding will be in the eating, but not having seem RVP perform away from Arsenal, I fail to see how you can be so categorical in your opinion that he will replicate his form of last season, or so dismissive of any suggestion that he might not.

3. FACT: ade is being flogged by city because he had a falling out with mancini; NOT because he wasn't producing. Mancini had his own ideas when he took over. Even so, Ade did a lot better at Spurs last season than all our other strikers combined! So to suggest he is being flogged by city for not producing is a distortion of the facts. Therefore my point that he is performing adequately elsewhere is sound and valid.

This is a curious argument. I pointed out that Adebayor was not as prolific as he was at Arsenal in his standout season when he left. I made no comment as to why he left Citeh. It is uncontrovertible fact that he was nowhere near as prolific at either Citeh; Real Madris or Spurs than he was in his penultimate season with us. And any fall out with Mancini was because he did not perform like a £180K pw striker. Do you think that if he had been scoring for fun, Mancini would have let him go? Well Tevez returned to the fold after a far higher profile falling out, didn't he? I have already provided evidence that Adebayor was over-valued and overpaid.

Whether Adebayor scored more than our second, third, fourth choice strikers is completely irrelevant to any point that I have made.

4. Do I have a problem with our board? Yes! Is it relevant with regards to your question about RVP's commitment as a captain? YES.
You want to discuss effect without acknowledging the likely causes? Fine. But where is the 'sense' in that? So my point about board is to point out clearly to you where the main cause of the problem stems. You cannot ignore the board running the club as a pure financial investment and then question the commitment of players when they decide to put their interests first.

Again, we are arguing at cross purposes. I have not been debating what the cause of our best players leaving is. I would have thought that point is obvious - the club is not prepared to spend enough money to keep them. The question I asked is whether RVP was as committed, and therefore as indispensible a captain as some might suggest. And that is an entirely fair question in its own right, looking forwards.

I cannot see how you can be both a committed captain of AFC and presume to have fundamental differences with the club about the way it is run. The fact that you, and others might sympathise with the views that RVP expresses does not, for me, mean that he was right to express them. At the end of the day, RVP is a football player, not a club owner, or manager. The fact that he is the latest in a long line of players to try to manipulate a club's situation to his own ends in order to force a move away is hardly a reason to support that player, IMO.

What more could RVP have done as a captain last season other than put in that performance?

I agree. What more could he have done to put himself in the shop window?

[Power n Glory]

Ice, way back last year, you said you'd understand why RVP would want to leave the club. How else did you expect this scenerio to play out?

[IBK]

Ice, way back last year, you said you'd understand why RVP would want to leave the club. How else did you expect this scenerio to play out?

I do understand why he would want to leave the club. I'll be interested to see whether he does as well elsewhere, and I resent the way in which he has engineered his departure, but of course I understand why a player would wish to leave to a) earn more money, and b) have a better chance of winning something. The extent to which a) trumps b) with these players is always open for debate. It disappoints, rather than surprises me that RVP wants away - particularly when we look like being more proactive in the transfer market this Summer.

I also have concerns about the intentions and motivation of the club's owners.

But what I cannot do, as an Arsenal fan, is support what RVP; Fabregas; Nasri etc do. Understanding a player's motivation is not the same, IMO, as condoning it.

[Power n Glory]

Sounds to me as if you've chained your tune slightly because before you said you'd find it hard to criticise the guy. Now it seems your convinced his move away is based on money when back during the season your early comments were based on what we were seeing on the pitch.

[LDG]

I think the senario last year was different anyway. EVERYONE could understand if RVP left on the basis of last summer's debacle. He was also conducting himself extremely well, as captain and on the outside (at least), as a genuine footballer who cared about the club.

However, I think the team showed much more over the campaign after the woeful start. RVP should have been proud of the club for what it achieved, considering where we came from. If he wanted proof we were moving somewhere, he need ony look at how we pulled our socks up, and the way in which we appear to be conducting our summer business thus far.

If. IF, we bring in a few more quality additions, we'll be looking pretty strong for a side who can't compete with the megabucks.

What RVP and his agents did was poor brinkmanship, which to my mind has blown up in his face. And for that, he deservedly needs taking down a peg or two.

So yes. I hope he fails miserably if he goes. If he becomes the bigger person and goes back on what his statement said, works hard and signs a new deal, brilliant. Because he's a brilliant footballer. Taking back his comments would go a long way to proving he is above the money.

But I fear he's made that impossible for himself now. Stupid, stupid statement IMO.

[IBK]

Sounds to me as if you've chained your tune slightly because before you said you'd find it hard to criticise the guy. Now it seems your convinced his move away is based on money when back during the season your early comments were based on what we were seeing on the pitch.

Not really. As LDG says - the debacle that was last Summer's transfer season and the subsequent appalling start to the season meant that it would be difficult to blame a top class player (which RVP undoubtedby is) for leaving. But times change. We finished 3rd last season; have CL football again, and RVP had, to all intents and purposes, become captain of a united Arsenal team that had shown that it could compete on the pitch against the top teams. What's more, with the signings of Podolski and Giroud, the club has shown an ambition that appeared to be lacking last season.

Given the change around, it would not have been unreasonable to hope that RVP would wish to remain top dog at a club where he was adored.

Instead, not only was he unwilling to sign a new contract, but he showed that he was willing to damage the club in order to avoid having to play out the final year of his contract. IMO this is a clear indication that this move is about money more than about winning trophies.

Either way, it doesn't change the validity of the questions that I have been criticised for asking - namely whether he will reach the heaights that he has elsewhere, and whether he was the committed captain we all thought he was.

[gooners]

I have no issue with this statement at all - as I have never argued that RVP is not a quality player.



I don't follow your argument. The fact that we were not top scorers does not mean that we are not set up as an attacking team. We are undoubtedly an attacking, as opposed to a counter-attacking team. I don't think you can ignore the fact that RVP was a) played as the sole focal point of our attack, and b) was our captain and the player that all the others looked to when assessing his performance.

You have made a mistake in assuming that because I have questioned whether, like Adebayor, he will be quite as prolific away from Arsenal, this means that his scoring record for us is not remarkable. Of course it is, and I have never suggested otherwise. This is the problem with the way views become polarised on a MB like this. Pose a question in relation to a favourite player and you are being laughably critical. Point out that a 'pariah' player may have some redeeming features and you are an idiot.

The proof of the pudding will be in the eating, but not having seem RVP perform away from Arsenal, I fail to see how you can be so categorical in your opinion that he will replicate his form of last season, or so dismissive of any suggestion that he might not.



This is a curious argument. I pointed out that Adebayor was not as prolific as he was at Arsenal in his standout season when he left. I made no comment as to why he left Citeh. It is uncontrovertible fact that he was nowhere near as prolific at either Citeh; Real Madris or Spurs than he was in his penultimate season with us. And any fall out with Mancini was because he did not perform like a £180K pw striker. Do you think that if he had been scoring for fun, Mancini would have let him go? Well Tevez returned to the fold after a far higher profile falling out, didn't he? I have already provided evidence that Adebayor was over-valued and overpaid.

Whether Adebayor scored more than our second, third, fourth choice strikers is completely irrelevant to any point that I have made.



Again, we are arguing at cross purposes. I have not been debating what the cause of our best players leaving is. I would have thought that point is obvious - the club is not prepared to spend enough money to keep them. The question I asked is whether RVP was as committed, and therefore as indispensible a captain as some might suggest. And that is an entirely fair question in its own right, looking forwards.

I cannot see how you can be both a committed captain of AFC and presume to have fundamental differences with the club about the way it is run. The fact that you, and others might sympathise with the views that RVP expresses does not, for me, mean that he was right to express them. At the end of the day, RVP is a football player, not a club owner, or manager. The fact that he is the latest in a long line of players to try to manipulate a club's situation to his own ends in order to force a move away is hardly a reason to support that player, IMO.



I agree. What more could he have done to put himself in the shop window?

Again, Rvp is a quality player. Whether or not he will score the same number of goals elsewhere is irrelevant and does not even merit discussion. You could say the same for every other key player in any team.

Also, adebayor was not the main striker at spurs or even city. And my point is he has acquitted himself well. But what does it matter, because unless he scores the same number of goals he did in his best season with us, you will claim arsenal was the reason for that tally - which is ridiculous because a quality player is a quality player.

And ade's situation is completely different from tevez's. Granted he hasn't the same profile as tevez, but my point is he did not fit in mancini's plans. Mancini like any new manager came to the club with his own ideas. That is not an indictment on ade's turnover as a striker. Why dont you look up his tally last season.

Finally it is utterly absurd to suggest that rvps performance last season was to advertise his services. I have never understood this ridiculous and spurious assertion that is regularly made on this board. What is that based on? He wants to leave after reveiwing his options at the close of the season? Did he not leave all talk about his contract till the seasons end? What is odd about that? Wenger has always done that.

[LDG]

4.

[The Ogg Monster]

Cant see how we lack ambition now Podolski and Cazorla have arrived.