Match Reaction vs Stoke City (away)

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Yes but it's not for want of trying, 4th place isn't what they are interested in, they want trophies and Wenger doesn't deliver that so would have been shown the door IMO. If they challenge for the title and don't win it they will get more leeway or if they pick up a trophy or two again it will buy them time, but ultimately there will be a time when if they don't win they'll be shown the door, both those clubs have ambitions to be successful at the end of the day.

Prove it? That's right you can't, fact is not every club is lacking ambition like Arsenal, Arsenal fans have been brought up thinking 4th place is the holy grail and thus they think all other clubs think the same way. I'll say it again no other big club would have stuck with Wenger if all he'd done is got a CL place every season without competing properly for big trophies for over a decade.

You can say it as many times as you like, if a club was trying to finance a stadium move than constant 4th place finishes would be welcome.

When a club is looking to secure it's long term finances, it's going to mean very little to it to challenge for the title and finish a close second only to finish 6th or 7th the next season.

The difference now is the finances are secure and things still aren't getting better, and we have an arrogant trilobyte who thinks the club owes him a living. There is absolutely no reason to give him a contract extension now, but three years ago especially it would not have been unreasonable to say well you had to sell some of your best players in the past and you've still made top four, you can spend now and you have three seasons to take the club on (i didn't think it was a good idea as i thought he had too many deficiencies as a manager).

The damning inditement is that the club has had three years to plan for moving on from Wenger and it's made no attempt to give him less power or get a succession in place (and i agree this is part and parcel of a lack of ambition shown by Stan Kroenke as treating the club as an asset in his property portfolio)

With the exception of Gerard Houllier in 2004, have either liverpool or spurs sacked a manager for finishing in the top four?. And in fact haven't liverpool sacked managers more on the basis of failure to qualify for the competition?

If you were honestly expecting Wenger to be sacked prior to 2014, i would say it's just as well you don't run a large business yourself.

[Niall_Quinn]

Me too.

His latest whinging that some teams are now not giving their all because its the end of the season and they are safe is just another example of when he'd be better off keeping his mouth shut. I am assuming its a dig at West Ham for rolling over against Liverpool, even though Stoke did the same for us just 24 hours previously. Plus it completely misses the point that we fully deserve to be where we are in the league. We were nothing short of pathetic in the months when we were still in touch with the league leaders.

Yeah, it's despicable. If we're relying on West Ham to do the job for us it tells us everything we need to know about our manager. He's become the biggest loser in football. He sets out to lose and his main job has become spinning failure as success. That's why we've been kings of the Top 4 Trophy for so long - failing to compete for the title has become our definition of success. He's also started on his, "Everyone else didn't win the title either...", bullshit that he normally leaves until the end of season excuse-fest. Getting it in early this year. And there was that vague comment about the difficulties the poor team has had to face this season. A dig at the fans for speaking truth to his face.

The man's despicable. He reminds me of a politician - a lying bastard that claims to be a public servant while pursuing the exact opposite agenda.

Double figures behind the champions again - that's all that counts. We can scrape 4th, win a cup, but double figures behind the champions AGAIN means this man is not doing his job and that's the real story of it. He can shove his digs at the fans up his hole. Never has there been a more patient set of fans and he's abused that up, down and sideways.

[Özim]

You can say it as many times as you like, if a club was trying to finance a stadium move than constant 4th place finishes would be welcome.

When a club is looking to secure it's long term finances, it's going to mean very little to it to challenge for the title and finish a close second only to finish 6th or 7th the next season.

The difference now is the finances are secure and things still aren't getting better, and we have an arrogant trilobyte who thinks the club owes him a living. There is absolutely no reason to give him a contract extension now, but three years ago especially it would not have been unreasonable to say well you had to sell some of your best players in the past and you've still made top four, you can spend now and you have three seasons to take the club on (i didn't think it was a good idea as i thought he had too many deficiencies as a manager).

The damning inditement is that the club has had three years to plan for moving on from Wenger and it's made no attempt to give him less power or get a succession in place (and i agree this is part and parcel of a lack of ambition shown by Stan Kroenke as treating the club as an asset in his property portfolio)

With the exception of Gerard Houllier in 2004, have either liverpool or spurs sacked a manager for finishing in the top four?. And in fact haven't liverpool sacked managers more on the basis of failure to qualify for the competition?

If you were honestly expecting Wenger to be sacked prior to 2014, i would say it's just as well you don't run a large business yourself.

What so Spurs are going to settle for 4th now they are financing the stadium, I doubt it very much personally, besides the rubbish we were fed about the stadium was lies, we were told the team wouldn't suffer, that there's no point having a world class stadium without a world class team playing in it...this club is setup to make money and that's al lit cares about, other clubs however see success as a way of growing and thus see success as the goal.

Other managers like Houllier didn't settle for top 4, they want to win trophies, conequently they gambled, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, fact is no other manager would just settle like Wenger has, he's very odd like that, winning doesn't matter that much in the grand scheme of things to him, he prefers to make money for the club and indulge in pet projects. Liverpool sack managers on the basis they aren't seeing progress no on the fact they don't qualify for the CL, at the end of the day if you qualify every season there comes a time when people will ask where is the improvement, noone settles for being 2nd best, you start somewhere and try to improve, just like Spurs are trying to do.

[Niall_Quinn]

Do you think people kicking up a fuss in any way increases the chance of him going? You always say how he doesn't care what the fans think, are you now arguing that kicking up a fuss will make a difference? IMO the only thing that makes a difference is to just stop going. We are collectively the source of the money the club have, if we agree the board are only motivated by money then we have the power to remove that source but it can only work if it's a collective action, which it won't be.


Like the 'thoroughly enjoyable' 92/93 season then?

Always amusing to hear you talk about logic by the way.

Of course it makes a difference. When will it make a difference is the question. It would be interesting to take a look at how normal fans have ousted managers in the past. I don't have that information to hand but, if I looked, I suspect I'd find far less tolerance. Maybe TIB can chime in and relate how the Liverpool fans dealt with that other massive fraud Hodgson. Was there anyone left in that fanbase who thought it was a good idea to patiently wait for that guy to come good?

Anyway, it's pretty damn obvious that if fans sit on their hands through season after season of shite but the owner is happy with each outcome, nothing will ever change. The fact Wenger is even being considered for 2 more years is beyond belief, given his unerring record of failure. This tells us everything we need to know about the owner and the board. So who will change things? Yes, Wenger is an arrogant bastard who discounts the fans out of hand. But it's not him the fans are trying to influence.

[Özim]

Yeah, it's despicable. If we're relying on West Ham to do the job for us it tells us everything we need to know about our manager. He's become the biggest loser in football. He sets out to lose and his main job has become spinning failure as success. That's why we've been kings of the Top 4 Trophy for so long - failing to compete for the title has become our definition of success. He's also started on his, "Everyone else didn't win the title either...", bullshit that he normally leaves until the end of season excuse-fest. Getting it in early this year. And there was that vague comment about the difficulties the poor team has had to face this season. A dig at the fans for speaking truth to his face.

The man's despicable. He reminds me of a politician - a lying bastard that claims to be a public servant while pursuing the exact opposite agenda.

Double figures behind the champions again - that's all that counts. We can scrape 4th, win a cup, but double figures behind the champions AGAIN means this man is not doing his job and that's the real story of it. He can shove his digs at the fans up his hole. Never has there been a more patient set of fans and he's abused that up, down and sideways.

He's also trying to paint this season as progression don't forget by saying he won the title with 78 points, the arrogance of the man is unbelievable, someone ask him some questions that put him under some pressure and question his achievements in the last decade for goodness sake, trouble is if they did he'd react like a petulant child that think he knows it all. Embarassing.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

What so Spurs are going to settle for 4th now they are financing the stadium, I doubt it very much personally, besides the rubbish we were fed about the stadium was lies, we were told the team wouldn't suffer, that there's no point having a world class stadium without a world class team playing in it...this club is setup to make money and that's al lit cares about, other clubs however see success as a way of growing and thus see success as the goal.

Other managers like Houllier didn't settle for top 4, they want to win trophies, conequently they gambled, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, fact is no other manager would just settle like Wenger has, he's very odd like that, winning doesn't matter that much in the grand scheme of things to him, he prefers to make money for the club and indulge in pet projects. Liverpool sack managers on the basis they aren't seeing progress no on the fact they don't qualify for the CL, at the end of the day if you qualify every season there comes a time when people will ask where is the improvement, noone settles for being 2nd best, you start somewhere and try to improve, just like Spurs are trying to do.

Yes without a doubt if Pochetinno didn't finish outside the top four for the next five years, his position would be totally safe.

However the difference is Pochettino would have left long before then for something bigger himself

[Özim]

Of course it makes a difference. When will it make a difference is the question. It would be interesting to take a look at how normal fans have ousted managers in the past. I don't have that information to hand but, if I looked, I suspect I'd find far less tolerance. Maybe TIB can chime in and relate how the Liverpool fans dealt with that other massive fraud Hodgson. Was there anyone left in that fanbase who thought it was a good idea to patiently wait for that guy to come good?

Anyway, it's pretty damn obvious that if fans sit on their hands through season after season of shite but the owner is happy with each outcome, nothing will ever change. The fact Wenger is even being considered for 2 more years is beyond belief, given his unerring record of failure. This tells us everything we need to know about the owner and the board. So who will change things? Yes, Wenger is an arrogant bastard who discounts the fans out of hand. But it's not him the fans are trying to influence.

Totall agree, at the end of the day fans can create problems for the club and become a cause for irritation and pressure which ultimately can lead to change, when things were going wrong you could see the club were sweating a little bit and that was just for a few fans, get a lot more involved who go to matches and they're bound to stand up and take notice eventually.

It's win win for the board really, put as little in as possible and take out as much as you can, all with the fans seemingly content enough not to create a fuss, why change a good thing, keep it going for as long as you can!

[Özim]

Yes without a doubt if Pochetinno didn't finish outside the top four for the next five years, his position would be totally safe.

However the difference is Pochettino would have left long before then for something bigger himself

If all he did is finish top 4 questions would be asked, certainly by fans about which direction the club is going, particularly if they never compete in the CL like us, other clubs work differently and a CL place is a stepping stone to greater things, if there's no progression after that it's not good enough, there's only so long a club will settle for the same thing every season, particularly if what happens on the pitch matters to them.

Qualifying for the CL is pointless if you don't ever compete in it at the end of the day, sure financially it's great but if you're a club who see's footballing success as something important and can look beyong the cash cow of the CL and see that being successful actually brings greater rewards financially as well, you won't settle for just qualifying.

I agree however that he would leave because he has ambition, something Wenger lacks.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

If all he did is finish top 4 questions would be asked, certainly by fans about which direction the club is going, particularly if they never compete in the CL like us, other clubs work differently and a CL place is a stepping stone to greater things, if there's no progression after that it's not good enough, there's only so long a club will settle for the same thing every season, particularly if what happens on the pitch matters to them.

I agree however that he would leave because he has ambition, something Wenger lacks.

Club boards think long term, if spurs had five-ten years where they were finishing fourth but nothing else they would take the safe option.....would the fans get a bit fed up? yeah but until it got to the point where we are at now they wouldn't be calling for the manager to be sacked (certainly not the majority anyway).

You would add to that, that Spurs have no recent history of success so consistently finishing in the top four would be a step up for them.

The likelihood is that they will have to sell the likes of Kane etc in the short term, so actually Pochetinno would be performing minor miracles to get the club into the champions league each season.

The difference is now we have expanded and come out the other side with no noticeable difference and that's why there's no justification for Wenger to remain because we don't need that stability anymore, we can afford as a club to make bold moves.

Oh and by the way I have a liverpool fan sitting opposite of me, and he laughed when i told him your suggestion that his club would have sacked a manager who constantly finished in the top 4 no matter what else he achieved.

[selassie]

Yeah, it's despicable. If we're relying on West Ham to do the job for us it tells us everything we need to know about our manager. He's become the biggest loser in football. He sets out to lose and his main job has become spinning failure as success. That's why we've been kings of the Top 4 Trophy for so long - failing to compete for the title has become our definition of success. He's also started on his, "Everyone else didn't win the title either...", bullshit that he normally leaves until the end of season excuse-fest. Getting it in early this year. And there was that vague comment about the difficulties the poor team has had to face this season. A dig at the fans for speaking truth to his face.

The man's despicable. He reminds me of a politician - a lying bastard that claims to be a public servant while pursuing the exact opposite agenda.

Double figures behind the champions again - that's all that counts. We can scrape 4th, win a cup, but double figures behind the champions AGAIN means this man is not doing his job and that's the real story of it. He can shove his digs at the fans up his hole. Never has there been a more patient set of fans and he's abused that up, down and sideways.

Classic Wenger deflection tactics.

He did the same thing last season when he had the nerve to say Arsenal had done their bit in the title race by beating Leicester twice, apparently it was up to the other teams to defeat Leicester too in order for Arsenal to win the title, yeah...that's not quite how it works

He is boring and transparent...