Who are the "we" in that post?Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory
Who are the "we" in that post?
I'll get into that once you're able to answer the first question.
We are going to get to the semis of the CL this season and at least the quarters of the FA Cup.
No team has a Divine right to be anywhere, some clubs have a history of being a bigger club, others have recently bought their way in to the top table (which, to be fair, is the only way of joining these days).
Arsenal have always been a big club and a fairly successful one BUT it should be noted that since the 30s we have never been a team which has been consistently successful. Read Fever Pitch.
We won The Double in 1971 and didn't win another trophy of any kind till 1979, for example. And that Double was preceded by the Fairs Cup in 1970 but that was the first trophy since 1953 when we were champions.
There have been long periods of time when we've been nowhere. English football has never had a Rangers or Celtic who are pretty much always up there, it's only the rise of TV money and in particular the Champions League which has created this little group of teams at the top of each league who tend to stay up there because the money it generates makes it self-sustaining.
This is why I asked what you meant by who "we" are. What standard do "we" set ourselves? If you mean the board then the current lot only care about the revenues, trophies are nice and keep the profile up but so long as we're up there in the top 4 and qualify for the CL the income streams are secured so that's good enough. I believe Wenger desperately wants us to win titles but I don't think he has the ability to do so any more. If you mean the fans then what is that standard based on? For younger fans it can only be what they've grown up with which is us being brilliant and winning trophies left, right and centre. This is why I say Wenger is only failing compared with himself. It's not that we never had success before Wenger, obviously. But let's not forget that it was never consistent success. Never in our history have we had so many consecutive seasons as one of the top few clubs in the country.
I'm not talking about divine right? What is divine right? Football has changed since the 70s. There is no point comparing.
You still haven't answered the first part of the question. Would it this be acceptable for Man Utd, Man City, Chelsea, Barca or Bayern?
We're the 5th richest club in the world above City, Chelsea and Juve, just below Bayern with Utd, Barca and Madrid. But we're the club that hasn't won the league in over a decade. Well, Spurs are also in that Top 10along with Liverpool but considering how we rip the piss out of them and how we rip the piss out of Utd, City or Chelsea when finishing lower than expected or losing, why is that Wenger is only being compared with himself? That's not how this works. I've only ever heard of that when someone is so good and far beyond the competition that they're on another planet compared to anyone else and it's only fair to compare their work with their best effort. We can agree that's not the case for Wenger.
Well, this is why I wanted to know who "we" are. Good enough for who? The board? The fans?
We as a club. The fans and players expect more from a club of our stature. The Board have said they're aiming to be able to compete with Bayern. Wenger himself has said he wants more and you only have to look to Theo's recent 'Any Given Sunday' story to further that. Financially we're up there as the 5th richest club in the world.
I'm not going to fall into the same debate about Board expectations and Wenger's compared to the fans. They've already said they're not happy with not winning and aim to win so we can leave it at that.
But now answer what you think when see Jose or Pep faltering with both Manchester clubs. Chelsea last season. I've even heard you say you're not sure about Klopp because of his recent run with Liverpool even though he's done more than Wenger in recent years. Why are you unsure of a manger like Klopp but then say Wenger is only competing with himself?
The club is just an entity, it doesn't have expectations.
The board do but right now they seem to be mostly about revenue. They said they're aiming to compete with Bayern but they didn't sack a manager who failed last year to compete with Leicester. All the other big guns did and while I don't want to be on the endless manager merry-go-round there comes a time when enough is enough. IMO Wenger did well to navigate us through the stadium move and keep us up there and the FA Cups were nice but it's clear he can't push is any further so we need someone who can.
The fans have an expectation too but where does that expectation come from? Right now it comes from Wenger's time with us, before then we never expected to challenge for the title each year. I didn't say he's competing with himself, I said he's only failing in comparison with himself. 20 years ago 3 seasons where we win two FA Cups and then finish 2nd in the league wouldn't have led to howls of derision and calls to sack the manager. We as a club have moved on, we expect more now but that level of expectation comes from Wenger's initial success with us and the way the club has grown under him.
I thinkBut now answer what you think when see Jose or Pep faltering with both Manchester clubs. Chelsea last season.
But I also think "be careful what you wish for". I think Wenger needs to move on but I reject the notion that Wenger is such a bumbling incompetent that any idiot could come in and we'd be winning titles left, right and centre. Other feted managers have come and gone at big Premier League clubs with big resources and failed to do that.
So...Wenger Out, but let's get things out of perspective. He's kept us relatively competitive, we have a good squad, we have money in the bank. We're in pretty good shape for any manager coming in, he's hardly "done a Clough" and taken us down, he hasn't even done a Moyes.
His failing in comparison to to clubs of our size and stature. There is no denying Wenger got us to where we are but you're talking as if we're still playing at Highbury and not the 5th richest club in the world.The club is just an entity, it doesn't have expectations.
The board do but right now they seem to be mostly about revenue. They said they're aiming to compete with Bayern but they didn't sack a manager who failed last year to compete with Leicester. All the other big guns did and while I don't want to be on the endless manager merry-go-round there comes a time when enough is enough. IMO Wenger did well to navigate us through the stadium move and keep us up there and the FA Cups were nice but it's clear he can't push is any further so we need someone who can.
The fans have an expectation too but where does that expectation come from? Right now it comes from Wenger's time with us, before then we never expected to challenge for the title each year. I didn't say he's competing with himself, I said he's only failing in comparison with himself. 20 years ago 3 seasons where we win two FA Cups and then finish 2nd in the league wouldn't have led to howls of derision and calls to sack the manager. We as a club have moved on, we expect more now but that level of expectation comes from Wenger's initial success with us and the way the club has grown under him.
I think
But I also think "be careful what you wish for". I think Wenger needs to move on but I reject the notion that Wenger is such a bumbling incompetent that any idiot could come in and we'd be winning titles left, right and centre. Other feted managers have come and gone at big Premier League clubs with big resources and failed to do that.
So...Wenger Out, but let's get things out of perspective. He's kept us relatively competitive, we have a good squad, we have money in the bank. We're in pretty good shape for any manager coming in, he's hardly "done a Clough" and taken us down, he hasn't even done a Moyes.
I think you've stressed caution long enough and we all understand the risk or should do by now. But say Wenger were to go and we sign a someone like Simeone or we had signed a Pep or Klopp. Someone of that sort of stature with a rep for winning....would your expectations change?
I'm talking as if Wenger deserves a bit more credit than he gets on here for getting us where we are. The level of disrespect and abuse he gets on here is unwarranted IMO although I do get the frustration at repeated mistakes and he does talk a load of balls in interviews - no more than most other managers though.
My expectations now are for us to challenge for the biggest prizes. The new stadium is now working for us rather than against and we have the resources to compete with anyone. So no, my expectations wouldn't change if we had another manager, I think we need another manager because Wenger isn't delivering my expectations and this week's game was just another example of why he isn't.
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