Would you Swap?

[McNamara That Ghost...]

It would be "papering over the cracks" every post.

[Letters]

If it helps, 21, my local club are Enfield Town. We went up last season and spent most of this stinking up the place - we weren't coping with the higher level.
We stayed up on the last day (despite losing that one to a side chasing the title) because other results went our way.
So, for me, it was a fairly successful season - half way through I thought we were dead and buried but a decent run in the second half of the season saw us stay up by the skin of our teeth.
That doesn't mean I'd regard that sort of a season a success if Arsenal did it.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Why would you flip it? We're Arsenal fans, it's our perspective that only matters in this scenario.

The actual question doesn't 'belittle' it - although they do that themselves by finishing 17th, it's asking whether you'd trade our season for it.

It's interesting that you won't actually answer it.

Don't project on to me that trophies and only trophies matter - I want them, god knows I wanted us to be professional ahead of the Champions League but I'm not so desperate to junk everything else in favour of it.

For me no I wouldn't swap it in that scenario because I don't know I believe in putting yourselves in positions to achieve great things.

Funnily enough I think we're better placed for that Tottenham - is that outlandish to think?

So what's the point of the comparison if we can't flip it? If they don't want to be us, or envy us, and we don't want to be them....what are we debating then?

Simply put, if you want me to focus on us soley, we had aims to win particular competitions and we ended up with none. Securing a CL place was not our objective this season. I doubt you'd be able to say that achieving a semi final place in the CL was either. In general, when I look at our football it has regressed....so what exactly am I celebrating?

Oh yeah, I am better than the Spuds, at least the league table says that in unmistakable terms. However they equalled my achievements in the LC, bettered me in the FA Cup and ended up with a trophy that I have been to the finals/semi finals like 3/4 times or so in the last 30 years and still never won......but yeah I'm better.

My point is the need to make this comparison can only come from a place of dejection and that is what matters to me as an Arsenal fan and what I should be worried about. Everything else is irrelevant to me.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

My reading of this question being asked is because it's being said, it's out there being spoken already, that they've had a better season.

It's being asked by Tottenham fans about us so I don't think it's reasonable to say the question itself belittles.

You're flipping it but still not answering it yourself. You have still not said if you would swap it.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Of course. They hadn't won a trophy in 17 years. They'll take anything they can get.
But as we seem to agree, Arsenal and Spurs are clubs at very different levels so have fanbases with very different expectation levels.
They may well regard their season as a success, that doesn't mean I'd regard it as a success if we'd had their season.
We've finished 2nd and people have spent all season moaning. Can you imagine the level of discussion on here had we won 6 home games all season and lost 22 overall?

The thing is Letters, every single time we've won a trophy in the last few years, the Spuds finished above us and I believe were in the CL.

At no point would I have swapped our FA cup for their "achievements" or seasons. But something tells me if you had asked a Spud fan the question in both those seasons, they would have swapped.

Like I said, I'd prefer we didn't feel the need to debate this. We as fans know that form is temporary in football, but trophies are forever. That's why they matter. When you don't win one, it's best not to compare yourselves to others that do IMO.

And to finally answer your question, my initial response was a 'hell no", mainly because the EL can't satisfy my hunger anymore....however the longer I spend typing these responses to you guys, the more I'm wavering and realising how bad we've had it for a while with these expectations that never get met.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

My reading of this question being asked is because it's being said, it's out there being spoken already, that they've had a better season.

It's being asked by Tottenham fans about us so I don't think it's reasonable to say the question itself belittles.

You're flipping it but still not answering it yourself. You have still not said if you would swap it.

I saw something from O'Hara on skyports earlier, but immediately dismissed it.

But the more I'm forced to debate this with you guys, the more I'm beginning to see his point....especially as the trophy they won allows them to equal our only tangible "achievement" this season, which is making the CL.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

We start from an equal base and quality of player then, interesting.

[Letters]

The thing is Letters, every single time we've won a trophy in the last few years, the Spuds finished above us and I believe were in the CL.

At no point would I have swapped our FA cup for their "achievements" or seasons. But something tells me if you had asked a Spud fan the question in both those seasons, they would have swapped.

Spurs may have finished above us those seasons when we won the FA Cup but we were never that low.
If Spurs had finished, say, top 6 and won the Europa League this year then that's a pretty decent season.
But they damn near went down. I mean, they weren't that close because the bottom 3 were absolutely bloody awful this season. But they've been just about as you can be without actually getting relegated. I believe they're the first PL side to lose 22 times and not get relegated. Watching that all season must have been bloody awful. And it tells you a lot more about where they are as a club than the Europa win.

Now of course the Europa League win is a massive silver lining. And sure, trophies are forever but we all know the context.
Alan Wells will go down as history as the 100m Olympic Champion in 1980. But anyone knows a bit of Olympic history knows that was the year it was in Moscow and a load of countries boycotted, including the US. Wells won it with a time 2 tenths of a second worse than the previous Olympic winner, in 100m terms that's quite a lot. Would he have won it had all the countries been competing? It seems doubtful.

Spurs won a competition which the best 30 odd teams in Europe couldn't compete in. It was the first season CL sides haven't dropped in to it. It tells you something about the quality of the teams in the competition that the final was between 2 of the worst PL sides to stay up this year. I'd never heard of the side they played in the semi-final, I had heard of Frankfurt and they did finish 3rd in the Bundesliga but a very distant 3rd. They only won half their games. It hardly the cream of European football, is it?
You can only play what's put in front of you of course but any Spurs fan with a modicum of self awareness would understand the context.

As I said their league position tell you more about where they are as a club. And that's why I wouldn't swap. We finished 2nd, we got to the CL semi-final. None of that wins you a trophy but it tells you that we are in a much better position than Spurs to challenge for major honours IF we address the obvious issue up front.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

It's clear you are pretty convinced on your position, so I won't belabour this much. But I'll try and point out a few things .

First of all, this is not the first season clubs that participate in the CL proper won't be in the UEFA cup. Teams dropping from the CL group stages into the UEFA cup I believe only started in the first season we got to the final, year 2000 against Galatasaray.

Even before then , the UEFA cup was still seen as prestigious....so I think it would be unfair to say that its totally gone to crap when it's just reverted to the way it was before till everyone got CL fever.

Also, lets not over flog this league position, as whether you like it or not it is just one of the competitions we compete in and we did not even win it. Now IIRC you were one of the many who stated it wasn't important where at the top we ended if there was a chance we could win the CL when you guys were ok with "sacrificing" our games in the league if it meant we'd be fresh enough to get to the CL final.

It now looks like you are trying to have it both ways by repeatedly pointing out how far better we did than them in the league, when all that matters is we didn't win it but we still managed to qualify for the CL.... which surprise surprise, is exactly what the Spuds have achieved too. They also achieved this while equalling and bettering our record in all other competitions we were both in.

Now, I've never hidden my main priority and dream is the league. I rate winning the league over everything which includes the CL, and it's not going to change till we win it again. The main reason I wanted to finish 2nd was to ensure that we've got a springboard to actually win it, despite the fact this is the 2nd time in a row we are failing to build on that supposed springboard.

However, as bad as 17th might sound, Spurs are still in the race for the title next season, whether anyone likes it or not. Statistically they won't even be the first team to almost get relegated one season and win the league the next, as Leicester only finished 6 points ahead of the relegation places before winning the league the next season. Also the same year Leicester won, Chelsea finished 10th in the table (worst league position as at then under Abramovich) and went on to win the league the very next season.

So one poor league season is not enough to say unequivocally that Tottenham won't be finishing higher than us next season, no matter how badly we want to believe this is true. (BTW, I personally don't believe so, but I also thought we'd win something this season so WTF do I know)

So once again, I say to you, insisting our season was better than theirs is not a straightforward yes or no question and IMO it best we don't debate it, at least for our sanity.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Spurs will be in the race for the title next season?

In the same way Sunderland and Burnley will be sure (it being hypothetically possible)