Match Reaction vs Bayern Munich (home)

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

What are the wages attached to the 90 mill of signings last window? Pretty high I'll bet considering we seem to pay way too much to second tier players and then refuse to spend what is needed to retain real stars. I think we certainly could have spent 60 mill plus the wages. The trouble is, Wenger has no strategy. What's wrong with one premium signing a season? Build the results as the team slowly improves and with the results comes the money to fund the next round. Much better than our current scattergun approach. We're not even playing Peres. Chambers has gone missing. Wilshere's string of big pay rises came to nothing, we kept Diaby on 70k for how long? Wenger just isn't very good in the transfer market.

It's the one off wages, if you sign a player of 60 million + that player then wants wages of 250-300k a week and then the other players think why am i not on that, their agents start pushing for contract negotiations or trying to tout them elsewhere....it's what's called a domino effect

[Power n Glory]

We had this discussion six weeks ago, but just to remind you and so you don't think it's coming out of the blue. I made it abundantly clear that you asking me why I am posting on a subject would elicit the response of Go fuck yourself.

So Go fuck yourself.

Well fuck you too But let me rephrase that. Why is spending power relevant when the discussion stems from the shift in mentality it took for Bayern to get to where they are. That's all that's relevant here. Bayern haven't seen a major shift to their finances. Nothing like what we've seen with our new sponsorship money one season and then the new TV rights money after. The money conversation is irrelevant because it takes a shift in mentality. So far, it looks like humiliation hasn't affected our Board or manager so even if we were the richest club in the world, and not just one of the richest, it wouldn't make a difference unless we had something internally clicked.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

It was in response to the post you quoted about people thinking the club is a lot smaller than it is and i mentioned that on the contrary because of the spending power some of the expectations of the club are unrealistic

To be fair i have also added as a massive caveat countless times by saying that Leicester especially was proof that even when Money isn't a factor Wenger fails

Yes i think we can be doing a hell of a lot better, i hate the humiliations etc

But I do think there are unrealistic expectations, 90% of the league titles in the next ten years will be won by Chelsea, United and City just like they were in the last ten years, the failure of Wenger is not even to make a fist at fighting against that and not taking the chance when these clubs have an off season.

And to fail in the same way, season in, season out

[Niall_Quinn]

It's the one off wages, if you sign a player of 60 million + that player then wants wages of 250-300k a week and then the other players think why am i not on that, their agents start pushing for contract negotiations or trying to tout them elsewhere....it's what's called a domino effect

Is there any evidence to support that theory? Ozil is on 200+ supposedly. You could say that has led to Alexis wanting similar, but of course he's our star player and he can get that anywhere (a lot more in fact). Who else can though? You have to be able to back up your claims with a bit of talent and the certainty somebody else out there wants to pay you what you are asking. Hasn't our problem been we couldn't get rid of the dross we were overpaying?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Is there any evidence to support that theory? Ozil is on 200+ supposedly. You could say that has led to Alexis wanting similar, but of course he's our star player and he can get that anywhere (a lot more in fact). Who else can though? You have to be able to back up your claims with a bit of talent and the certainty somebody else out there wants to pay you what you are asking. Hasn't our problem been we couldn't get rid of the dross we were overpaying?

Ozil is on 160k

So you don't think that if we signed Sanchez up to a new deal for say 250k, and then we sign Aubemeyang for 60-70million....he is going to demand 300k a week to correspond to the money we have had to shell out to Dortmund. And then Sanchez thinks hang on i want 300k a week, Ozil thinks hang on i want 300k a week

Yeah it would be ameliorated by clearing dross off the wage bill, but long term it's unsustainable. We could arguably do it once, maybe twice....Chelsea, United and City can do it every season.

We know the club's reluctance to put Sanchez on higher contract is because no one can earn more than Wengy chops....but arguably should that not be the case. If we brought in Allegri for instance, isn't he going to want 10 million a year at least?.....won't he also believe that there will be a problem with players following his authority if they earn more than him.

[Özim]

It's the one off wages, if you sign a player of 60 million + that player then wants wages of 250-300k a week and then the other players think why am i not on that, their agents start pushing for contract negotiations or trying to tout them elsewhere....it's what's called a domino effect

I'll be honest and say that's typical Wenger school of thinking, he's got people convinced their won't be harmony if there's a big pay disparity, that's his policy and a damn stupid one if you ask me (it's hindered us massively over the years), he paid the likes of Bendtner, Denilson etc much more than they were worth because of this.

Do Barca say to Messi we can't pay you more because other players will want the same, do Real say this to Ronaldo? No better players command better wages because they are more talented and more desirable ad perhaps more important to the team, that's always been the case and I don't believe for one minute is causes issues (except for players who think they are better than they are in which case get rid).

Some of these ideas Wenger has literally pulled out of the sky seem to have become ingrained in the clubs thinking now, this is what I mean when I say Wenger will leave this club not in a great state, he's changed this club in so many ways and it's deeply ingrained in it's culture now and changing it will be very hard, any new manager will find it much harder than normal because of all this, which is why he'll need to be given plenty of time.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I'll be honest and say that's typical Wenger school of thinking, he's got people convince their won't be harmony if there's a big pay disparity, that's his policy and a damn stupid one if you ask me (it's hindered us massively over the years), he paid the likes of Bendtner, Denilson etc much more than they were worth because of this.

Do Barca say to Messi we can't pay you more because other players will want the same, to Real say this to Ronaldo? No better players command better wages because they are more talented and more desirable ad perhaps more important to the team, that's always been the case and I don't beelive for one minute is causes issues (except for players who think they are better than they are in which case get rid).

Erm what???

My point is to sign players of the quality of Sanchez and Ozil we are going to have to pay 60 million+, and because of that they are going to demand 300k a week

If we kept those two and tried to sign a 60-70 million pound player that will be the bracket of a Griezmann, do you honestly think Sanchez and Ozil think of themselves as being in a lower quality bracket to Griezmann and even if they did their agents wouldn't think so.

You are honestly comparing us to Barcelona? This is the point i have been making.....we aren't Barcelona....without a narcissistic oligarch we never will be Barcelona . Barcelona don't have a sugar daddy but they have the reputation to market themselves because of their reputation and get the A Grade sponsorship deals....this is the same arrangement for Bayern Munich.

I know Wenger will come up with a myriad of excuses for his failings, but ultimately brass tacks....there's a man with a masters degree in economics and then...there's you

[Özim]

Erm what???

My point is to sign players of the quality of Sanchez and Ozil we are going to have to pay 60 million+, and because of that they are going to demand 300k a week

If we kept those two and tried to sign a 60-70 million pound player that will be the bracket of a Griezmann, do you honestly think Sanchez and Ozil think of themselves as being in a lower quality bracket to Griezmann and even if they did their agents wouldn't think so.

You are honestly comparing us to Barcelona? This is the point i have been making.....we aren't Barcelona....without a narcissistic oligarch we never will be Barcelona . Barcelona don't have a sugar daddy but they have the reputation to market themselves because of their reputation and get the A Grade sponsorship deals....this is the same arrangement for Bayern Munich.

You specifically said:

then the other players think why am i not on that, their agents start pushing for contract negotiations or trying to tout them elsewhere....it's what's called a domino effect

By this I assume you mean the players we have, I don't agree with this at all to be honest, players want to see top players come in to give them more chance of winning big trophies and they also realise that they aren't at the same level as the very best.

I think Sanchez and Ozil would think great a top player coming in, we have a better chance of trophies, I think they'd be happy about it. As for money, well if they are delivering world beating performances regularly you pay up because they are that good, like other clubs do.

No I'm not, I'm just pointing out it's ridiculous to think all other players will want massive wages because your best players who are the most important part of your team get paid more, this applies to any club, I was simply giving you examples. Noone else has any issue with it so I don't see why we would be the exception, it's basically one of those stupid Wenger ideas.

In addition, if you're winning trophies, it tends to be easier to keep players, it's when you're not it becomes harder.

[Power n Glory]

It was in response to the post you quoted about people thinking the club is a lot smaller than it is and i mentioned that on the contrary because of the spending power some of the expectations of the club are unrealistic

To be fair i have also added as a massive caveat countless times by saying that Leicester especially was proof that even when Money isn't a factor Wenger fails

Yes i think we can be doing a hell of a lot better, i hate the humiliations etc

But I do think there are unrealistic expectations, 90% of the league titles in the next ten years will be won by Chelsea, United and City just like they were in the last ten years, the failure of Wenger is not even to make a fist at fighting against that and not taking the chance when these clubs have an off season.

And to fail in the same way, season in, season out

Maybe people are being unrealistic about spending power in other threads, but that wasn’t the point to the original conversation. Anyone linking how much Bayern spend on their team compared to ours do so in order to debunk Wenger’s excuses about why we fail. Selassie’s original post highlights the complete difference in mentality Bayern have to what we have here at Arsenal. We are a bigger club. Not the biggest but years of Wenger talking down our European record before he arrived and the excuses about finances just creates a bigger mental monster where we aim lower than what we should.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Maybe people are being unrealistic about spending power in other threads, but that wasn’t the point to the original conversation. Anyone linking how much Bayern spend on their team compared to ours do so in order to debunk Wenger’s excuses about why we fail. Selassie’s original post highlights the complete difference in mentality Bayern have to what we have here at Arsenal. We are a bigger club. Not the biggest but years of Wenger talking down our European record before he arrived and the excuses about finances just creates a bigger mental monster where we aim lower than what we should.

Yes and this segways into the fact that some fans believe Wenger's obfuscations caused the quote "some people think we are a smaller club than we are"

and i decided to respond by stating that equally some fans believe we are bigger than we are. A club's stature especially in this day and age is defined by it's spending power.

And then the conversation went more into the realms of spending, i know you get terribly disturbed and troubled by the tangential nature of football forums but try not to let it get to you too much