Summer Transfer Speculation and Shit.

[Power n Glory]

Now you are equating a Tesco worker with a footballer. These comparisons don't stand up at all.

Jeez, NQ. It’s like you just don’t get certain principles in life. Think about economics and how a capitalist society works. I’m not comparing the two professions and the pay scale. Regardless of the profession or what gets paid, there are certain principles that apply throughout. Do I really need to explain this and come up with more examples?

I'm not saying he should allow the fans to vote on what he's paid or if he stays or goes. What I'm saying is he's where he is today in part because of those fans (and this can't be denied) and it's right to factor this into his decision making process. Why wouldn't it be? When he was growing up as a kid if you said to him he'd be playing for Arsenal and taking home £100Kpw wouldn't that represent a dream come true? Shouldn't the focus now be on football, breaking into the starting eleven, giving all he can in return for the massive privilege he enjoys? That's the bit that's missing.

Don’t you think that’s a bit presumptuous? When it comes to football and celebrity culture, it's always easier looking from the outside in and assume you'd do xyz if placed in the same situation but with more money. You don't know these people and you've never had a conversation with them.

I'll say it again. Players like Terry and Gerrard are putting the rest to shame in this respect and that's embarrassing.

They're the highest paid players at their club! It's embarrassing two so many people hold them up as examples. As if they'd stay their whole careers if they weren't top earners and captains of the club with power and influence.

We're talking morals and principles here. Okay, so maybe these don't apply for greedy owners and overfed club executives and the players who are paid way beyond their abilities. Fair enough, most of these people don't have the character to appreciate their circumstances. That doesn't mean the fans need to go along with it. It escapes me how any fan could simply accept this behaviour as being excusable just because it is prevalent.

What would happen if fans started behaving like players? What if everyone shifted to being a gypo at the end of last season and nobody turned up for any other club? Would the clubs and players rapidly going out of business be sitting there accepting that shit like this happens and it's normal and reasonable? Would they be applauding the plastic army queuing outside the Ethiad? Rather they'd say the disloyal fuckers have ruined the game and they'd be right.

Last part.....accept that the players are just that. Players. Most aren't even born in England yet alone London. They're not responsible for the economics of football. A few players turning down massive contracts won't change anything. The real ambassadors of the game are the organisations like the FA, FIFA, UEFA and the clubs. If they're morals are falling by the wayside and let the integrity of the game slide, it's up to the fans to stop turning up. It is that simple. Tribalism, loyalty...what are you loyal to? What are you supporting exactly if the state of football is so unbearable to you? It's an easy fix really.

[Niall_Quinn]

Jeez, NQ. It’s like you just don’t get certain principles in life. Think about economics and how a capitalist society works. I’m not comparing the two professions and the pay scale. Regardless of the profession or what gets paid, there are certain principles that apply throughout. Do I really need to explain this and come up with more examples?

Wrong, wrong and wrong some more. While there are some very BASIC principles that apply in all cases it's simply not correct to suggest there aren't additional principles to consider that are very much dependant on the profession and the pay. We were talking about loyalty and it's ridiculous to suggest this principle can be applied to a Tesco worker. That's a very straightforward proposition - you stack the shelves, we pay you. Don't like it? Go and stack shelves somewhere else. Working for Tesco at a junior level is hardly a profession, requires no skill, attracts no attention and is a one to one relationship between the employer and the employee. When was the last time yo saw somebody wearing a £50 shirt with "Dave from Tescos" written across the back? When was the last time anyone handed over a credit card for a pay per view event with Dave stacking Doritos?

Fans pay to watch Theo Walcott play for Arsenal and kids put money in his pocket when they ask dad to buy the latest Walcott shirt which has just been changed for the 99th time. The loyalty of the fans is part of the industry and the workers in that industry benefit from that loyalty.

It's not just football either. A senior executive might be bound by a non-disclosure agreement or competitive restrictions when leaving a job. Nobody gives a fuck if Dave goes and works for Sainsburys. It's not JUST about the pay and any footballer who is out for himself to the exclusion of all else is short-changing the fans by ignoring the wider implications of being a highly visible football player.

It's this clinical rationalism that reduces everything to economics that lies at the root of most of the problems in this world. Very convenient for those on the make because it allows them to ignore their responsibilities and the consequences of their actions. Nobody should be apologising for that sort of behaviour.

I'll answer your other paragraphs if I get the chance because I need to do some metaphorical shelf stacking for a shitty client now. In this case your take on principles very much applies. But not in Walcott's case.

[Power n Glory]

You not what really annoys me most about this conversation. It's just football! This isn't a service. It's entertainment. You don't have to pay for it. You don't have to watch it. What goes into the players pockets have no real effect on anybody. You can still enjoy football regardless of where Theo plays but if it bothers you that much just switch it off. If it's too expensive, stop paying for it. We really need to stop talking as if footballers are everything that's wrong with the world. It's then people that continue to support and pay for that keeps the system running.

[Power n Glory]

NQ, what do you do for a living by the way?

[fakeyank]

NQ, what do you do for a living by the way?

Posting on GW is a full time job!

[Power n Glory]

Posting on GW is a full time job!

Is it paid work? I do this shit for free!

[Niall_Quinn]

You not what really annoys me most about this conversation. It's just football! This isn't a service. It's entertainment. You don't have to pay for it. You don't have to watch it. What goes into the players pockets have no real effect on anybody. You can still enjoy football regardless of where Theo plays but if it bothers you that much just switch it off. If it's too expensive, stop paying for it. We really need to stop talking as if footballers are everything that's wrong with the world. It's then people that continue to support and pay for that keeps the system running.

That's like saying the local pub is just a place where you can get a drink. Misses 50% of the true function.

Very true, if you don't like the way the game has been stolen and ruined then switch it off!

See how that works? You're just the fan, the mug paying for all of this. So piss off if you don't like it. Or set up another league and run it how you like. (And if it gets successful we'll come in and buy it and ruin that too, and tell you to piss off if you don't like it).

Theo is just the focus of a much wider argument. Fair enough, who cares what an isolated Theo Walcott does? But when they are all doing it, then what? Fans shouldn't have to piss off from their own game (which they probably grew up with) just because Roman gypsy thugs and uncivilised Aussie tycoons have attached themselves.

No, I don't know Walcott. Whether I do or don't has no bearing on this particular discussion. It's what he does when representing the club that falls into the remit of the fans. Anything outside that, who cares? I don't need to be 'inside' to know I have principles that couldn't be swayed by money if loyalty was the cost. I also know I wouldn't deceive myself by hiding behind convenient but specious propositions. I also wouldn't be swayed by fashion. So in a broader sense I can at least speculate on what I'd do given his basic situation. As I previously said there's no real decision to make in the absence of significant circumstances that might legitimately cause consideration. He's on a fortune at a top club - what else can the world do for him I wonder?

Bear in mind I haven't been on Walcott's case this time around. I see nothing that gives weight to the media rumours. Sterling is a better example.

Terry and Gerrard have stuck around the longest and kept themselves at (or near) the top level. Isn't it right they are the top earners? That hasn't stopped top earners doing a runner though, has it? Players on huge sums have moaned and whinged their way to an exit and another pay day. Judas van Persie for example. The lesbian Nasri. That horrendous fuck Adebayor. Cesc was more devious, he actually turned the loyalty argument back on the fans with his DNA bullshit. His DNA is all blue now.

UEFA, FIFA etc. Can't argue with that. They are rotten to the core and at the heart of everything wrong with the game. But that isn't an open invitation for people to copy them. We should be revolted at the mention of their name, not holding them up as and excuse for our own scummy behaviour.

The tribalism I'm talking about is the familiar faces and places and the sense of belonging that all humans thrive on. Well apart from hermits and outcasts. You achieve together, fail together. It's idealistic in nature, often destructive as opposed to constructive but it is what it is. Our club and "them lot", our players and "their" players, us against them. There has to be a familiarity for that to work. Is it a rational way to carry on? Probably not. But as I said in another discussion, a bias towards rationalism is inhuman. You aren't alive if you are entirely rational. This exclusive rationalism is at the heart of your argument. It permits you to ignore the human factors and the consequences of the actions of one individual for the tribe in general.

I don't disagree with everything you are saying. Now the game has been hijacked for the sole purpose of financial gain it seems a bit foolish to try and hang onto traditions. I wasn't even going that far. All I was saying is there are individuals within the game who have fucked it up for all of us. That's how it is. But nobody should give them a free ride for that and as far as I'm concerned there's zero room for understanding.

I work in the pretend IT industry.

[Power n Glory]

What's the true function of football?

Ever wondered why the entertainment industry rakes in ridiculous money but things that really effect us we hardly invest in? Too much talk of 'they' as if we're all excluded from the problem. It annoys me that I even spend this amount of time talking and writing about this.

Bah....enough is enough.

[Niall_Quinn]

There's a difference between accepting something and acknowledging it. I think you accept these things while I acknowledge them.

[Power n Glory]

That sounds smart but the fact that I'm choosing to spend less time and money on Arsenal/football is the opposite of acceptance.