Is it terminal?

[LDG]

I've read your post and that part about showing loyalty is the sticking point. Why would our young players show loyalty when they're in this crooked system and none of the main decision makers have an ounce of loyalty to the game? I hear what you're saying but the burden IMO is always on the players. The top men have to lead by example.

They do have quite a bit of pull power tbf. You only have to look at Ade, Rooney, Ronaldo, Torres, Nasri etc etc to see how they can engineer moves themselves.

But that's still not my point.

This was Arsenal specific, as the OP was being Arsenal specific. It's about the clubs goals. And what I'm saying, is that our players (in the short term at least) are the only ones that can, IMO, influence how we move on over the next few years. Because it's as clear as mud, nothing else is going to change.

[Power n Glory]

That's still too much of a burden on the players and it's about time the focus went on the organisations. It's like constantly blaming refs for making wrong decisions while idiots in Uefa like Platini have the power to introduce technology to help progression but refuse to.

The focus has to go on the Board and manager. As I said in a previous post, what did Gazidsi and Wenger say to RVP in that meeting for him to believe that we're going in the wrong direction? Why isn't anyone concerned with that?

[LDG]

Of course we're concerned with that! OR. I just don't give a fuck anymore, because I'm sick of the politics (see my original post), and all I'm concerned with now, is seeing football.

Like I said in my original post, I want to see the players going out there and playing like their lives depended on it, because they love the game, and they love the club. THAT'S ALL I WANT. And it's not too much to fucking ask, because they earn enough, and it comes out of my fucking pocket!!

Yet I still have hope and faith in Wilshere and Frimpong and Chezzer (like I said in my original post) because I have to believe that something can change at this club, because (ARSENAL SPECIFIC) nothing else is going to change over the next few years (as I said in my second post, after my original post).


/GRRRRRRR

[IBK]

Honestly, I don't know what to think anymore. Any thoughts or feelings about what I think is going on, are all just conjecture, and whenever I feel like we're going in the right direction, the club go and piss all over my flame.

The only thing that is abundently clear nowadays, is that football is completely and utterly crooked. The "game" is still there, but the tradition and passion has been lost. It's that horrible stench of "celebrity" and Disneyland that seems to fester around every turn.

If it wasn't for the attachment with the club, I would ignore it, like I ignore the X-factor and pretty much anything else cooked up to brainwash the public. It's like finding out you've been adopted. The love is still there, but you feel like nothing is real anymore.

We'll never know what's really going on. It's politics, media and money. There is very little "football" left in the whole thing.

I just hope that the likes of Wilshere, Frimpong, Chesney and some of the other young lads coming on, have a bit more loyalty in them, else it's all for bollocks anyway. They're the only ones who can stop the rot. The players. They have the ability, and they also hold pretty much all of the cards.

You know - this is what I beat myself up most about. I agree 100% with you - and its really sad that these days, unless you follow the natural resources billions then you are almost bound to decline as a football club.

But would we feel the same feelings of depression if Kroenke wasn't such a tight-fisted ****? Its easy to take the moral ground and say yes - but the problem is that ultimately football is about what happens for 90 minutes on the pitch, and when you have the best striker in the country scoring the winning goal over your main rivals in the 90th minute the last thing on your mind is going to be how you reached that point. I like to think that I care about morals/ethics, but when we were winning titles 10 years ago, I wasn't thinking about the finacial constraints on Coventry or Southampton.

Its the same in football as it is becoming in any other walk of life. A melting pot of avarice; short term-ism and lack of real values. Are the players themselves ultimately responsible? Most of them are thick as pig shit and morally stunted. I blame the money men more. The agents; the lawyers; the sell out shareholders...and to an extent we fans are to blame as well. We keep buying the over-priced tickets to see something more resembling WWF by the day, and lapping up the football celebrity gossip on the back pages.

[LDG]

You know - this is what I beat myself up most about. I agree 100% with you - and its really sad that these days, unless you follow the natural resources billions then you are almost bound to decline as a football club.

But would we feel the same feelings of depression if Kroenke wasn't such a tight-fisted ****? Its easy to take the moral ground and say yes - but the problem is that ultimately football is about what happens for 90 minutes on the pitch, and when you have the best striker in the country scoring the winning goal over your main rivals in the 90th minute the last thing on your mind is going to be how you reached that point. I like to think that I care about morals/ethics, but when we were winning titles 10 years ago, I wasn't thinking about the finacial constraints on Coventry or Southampton.

Its the same in football as it is becoming in any other walk of life. A melting pot of avarice; short term-ism and lack of real values. Are the players themselves ultimately responsible? Most of them are thick as pig shit and morally stunted. I blame the money men more. The agents; the lawyers; the sell out shareholders...and to an extent we fans are to blame as well. We keep buying the over-priced tickets to see something more resembling WWF by the day, and lapping up the football celebrity gossip on the back pages.

For me it just comes down to who's kicking the ball on the pitch at the end of it I guess. That's what it's all about.

Of course I blame the money men for ruining the game.

But like you say, regardless of money, if Jack smacks one home against Spurs on 90 mins, that's all I give a fuck about....and it's why I have my hope invested in the players.

[Globalgunner]

The future i think will very much resemble the present, if nothing changes. If the management of the team thinks that striving to win things is either unattainable and/or uneconomic, then who among the players is going to hang around for the long term. Its a charade. The kids of today will be the RVPs of tommorrow. The manager`s ONLY focus must be to win, it is the constant broadening of Wengers portfolio to include even the napkins used at the upper level diner, that has left us in limbo. True we cannot pay the astronomic wages paid by City and Real Madrid, and now PSG, but this cannot be our barometer, nor our crutch to explain failure. If we were winning titles fewer players would leave. No player is worth more than 120k per week, but we pay our manager 140k. How so, Only at RM does the manager earn more than the players and they are a basketcase organisation. We need to get our priorities right, balance our salaries better across the playing staff. and then change the mentality on the pitch. If we were really playing well for 80-90% of the season and not getting regularly dicked by the likes of Swansea and Wigan, amidst beating ManCity and Lpool, we would not be in such a sorry state.

The solutions to our woes lie within our means to rectify. We simply do not seem willing to do it.

May I also reiterate that we must have the worst medical staff in all professional sport. Our track record of rehabilitating players is atrocious. just look at it, Diaby, never the same, Eduardo, never the same, Ramsey, hobbled for life, Wilshire, gone for almost 18 months. WTF is going on?, either physically or psychologically our players never seem to come back whole. The hamstring troubles that dogged Fabregas for his last 2 seasons here have not reoccurred at Barca. Look at the terrible injuries suffered by Jibril Cisse and Alan Smith, they still made full recoveries and seem to have completely put them behind in their careers, Some people need sacking,

[IBK]

The future i think will very much resemble the present, if nothing changes. If the management of the team thinks that striving to win things is either unattainable and/or uneconomic, then who among the players is going to hang around for the long term. Its a charade. The kids of today will be the RVPs of tommorrow. The manager`s ONLY focus must be to win, it is the constant broadening of Wengers portfolio to include even the napkins used at the upper level diner, that has left us in limbo. True we cannot pay the astronomic wages paid by City and Real Madrid, and now PSG, but this cannot be our barometer, nor our crutch to explain failure. If we were winning titles fewer players would leave. No player is worth more than 120k per week, but we pay our manager 140k. How so, Only at RM does the manager earn more than the players and they are a basketcase organisation. We need to get our priorities right, balance our salaries better across the playing staff. and then change the mentality on the pitch. If we were really playing well for 80-90% of the season and not getting regularly dicked by the likes of Swansea and Wigan, amidst beating ManCity and Lpool, we would not be in such a sorry state.

The solutions to our woes lie within our means to rectify. We simply do not seem willing to do it.

May I also reiterate that we must have the worst medical staff in all professional sport. Our track record of rehabilitating players is atrocious. just look at it, Diaby, never the same, Eduardo, never the same, Ramsey, hobbled for life, Wilshire, gone for almost 18 months. WTF is going on?, either physically or psychologically our players never seem to come back whole. The hamstring troubles that dogged Fabregas for his last 2 seasons here have not reoccurred at Barca. Look at the terrible injuries suffered by Jibril Cisse and Alan Smith, they still made full recoveries and seem to have completely put them behind in their careers, Some people need sacking,

Aye - the eternal quandry. The only way to stop the second main cause of our problems (after not winning silverware) - namely spunking far to much on gambles/substandard players, we would have to get rid of AW - 'cos he ain't going to change/be able to change things with the time he has left. But in order to do so means throwing the baby our with the bathwater, and getting rid of the only manager around likely to be able to keep us in the CL with the resoources we are willing to commit to the cause.

And re injuries - I am beginning to think that its not so much the medical staff, but the regime in which they operate. Our players are overplayed, and over-trained.

[Power n Glory]

You know - this is what I beat myself up most about. I agree 100% with you - and its really sad that these days, unless you follow the natural resources billions then you are almost bound to decline as a football club.

But would we feel the same feelings of depression if Kroenke wasn't such a tight-fisted ****? Its easy to take the moral ground and say yes - but the problem is that ultimately football is about what happens for 90 minutes on the pitch, and when you have the best striker in the country scoring the winning goal over your main rivals in the 90th minute the last thing on your mind is going to be how you reached that point. I like to think that I care about morals/ethics, but when we were winning titles 10 years ago, I wasn't thinking about the finacial constraints on Coventry or Southampton.

Its the same in football as it is becoming in any other walk of life. A melting pot of avarice; short term-ism and lack of real values. Are the players themselves ultimately responsible? Most of them are thick as pig shit and morally stunted. I blame the money men more. The agents; the lawyers; the sell out shareholders...and to an extent we fans are to blame as well. We keep buying the over-priced tickets to see something more resembling WWF by the day, and lapping up the football celebrity gossip on the back pages.

That's where I stand on the situation and as long as us fans keep looking in the wrong direction and blaming the players, our pockets will continue to get pinched. The burden is all on the players and they're paid well, but they're pawns in this. Or small pieces at least.

Gossip rags like The Sun are all too concerned about the lifestyle players lead and the spotlight is firmly on them when it comes to football. When it all goes wrong it falls on their shoulders and fans get on their back. What about the faceless agents that are ruining the game. What about the crooked owners and why aren't journalists doing more to do look into the background of the people that run our clubs and what they do to make money? We've seen how bloody crooked Fifa are and more should be done to clean up the game and get it back to being about the grassroots. I've grown tired of blaming the players all the time. Would anyone or us here stay loyal to company so tight fisted and crooked? It doesn't happen, even if you love what you do.

[IBK]

That's where I stand on the situation and as long as us fans keep looking in the wrong direction and blaming the players, our pockets will continue to get pinched. The burden is all on the players and they're paid well, but they're pawns in this. Or small pieces at least.

Gossip rags like The Sun are all too concerned about the lifestyle players lead and the spotlight is firmly on them when it comes to football. When it all goes wrong it falls on their shoulders and fans get on their back. What about the faceless agents that are ruining the game. What about the crooked owners and why aren't journalists doing more to do look into the background of the people that run our clubs and what they do to make money? We've seen how bloody crooked Fifa are and more should be done to clean up the game and get it back to being about the grassroots. I've grown tired of blaming the players all the time. Would anyone or us here stay loyal to company so tight fisted and crooked? It doesn't happen, even if you love what you do.

I guess our press had a go when we didn't land the World Cup and look how that ended up? Money will always win in the end because human beings are by their very nature venal, self-serving and greedy...

[LDG]

I guess our press had a go when we didn't land the World Cup and look how that ended up? Money will always win in the end because human beings are by their very nature venal, self-serving and greedy...