Invincibles vs Current Squad MNF Video

[Power n Glory]

You can be one of the most infuriating people to debate with PnG. Read my first post. The point where I said we need some physicality and proper width from players that understand that position. The repeated point I’ve made about the manager leaving and taking his frustrating footballing style with him? Read the posts PnG, read them. Don’t just find a point and open up a reply based solely on a couple of sentences. I’d understand if you were replying to multiple posters but it’s just me for crying out loud. Nowhere have I said that cynicism is going to win us a title by itself. It will help significantly because it will make us more competitive but that won’t rectify the tactical issues. I’ll repeat: We need a new manager, 3-5 new players and an entirely new mentality at the club.

It's frustrating because I don't agree with you and break it down to the simplest point. I've read your pots. We could have Kompany, Terry, and Fletcher....it doesn't solve our problems or increase our chances of winning a title again. It's that simple. You say the lack of cynicism is our biggest problem and essential to winning the PL. I disagree. I think your overemphasizing the importance of cynicism because I believe a superstar striker would enhance our chances by a great deal and without having the cynical player your talking about. I don't believe we're 4 players away from winning the league.

Also, just be careful with how you word things if you don't want me to get the wrong end of the stick.

You have rose tinted glasses on when you think back to the Invincibles. Sure we played some great, direct passing football but those boys also knew when to disrupt a game, put in a foul, stick up for their team mates and become just as thuggish as the stadium crowd that bays them on.

Why do you think he included Fletcher in title winning squads? For his technical ability? No, because he knew he had bundles of energy and acres of cynicism.

To be a winner you have to be cynical too, able to play dirty - sometimes more obviously than not - but without it you'll be a flash in the pan. The old guard at this club were English scrotes, who understand the horrible side of the game and that was taken on by physically strong players who had flair.

Was I wrong to point out that the Invincibles won the Fair Play award? It's just a fact. They were tough, they could hold their own and had a physical presence but it's different to what your describing. It's not essential to every title winning team and I think you've overcooked the importance.

[Power n Glory]

I'm not sure how sensible it is to compare us to The Invincibles. I remember at the time thinking "this is as good as it gets" and realising that almost certainly I'd never see an Arsenal side that good again.
The other thing that happened of course is the billionaires sicking their beaks in, inflating the market and hoovering up a lot of the best talent. And other sides getting wise to our training method and scouting in other countries, we're not fitter than other teams any more and we're not able to cherry pick foreign talent before it's on other team's radar any more.

I think that's where your going wrong. Football has changed but our style has totally changed as well. The pace up front has gone. Instead of an Anelka or Henry, we're bringing in team player strikers like Chamakh, Giroud and Sanogo. Players that help play the percentage passes instead of attacking space and getting forward quickly. As Theirry said, it used to take 4 passes to get into our opponents box. We'd win the ball back and then we'd break on a team. That doesn't happen now. We play the slow build up game. We have too many players that play the percentage passes instead of taking on a player and taking the initiative.

[Letters]

Part of being a legendary manager is staying at the top when the environment changes around you. Ferguson managed it. His final title win was miraculous, he literally shovelled a pile of shite to the finish line, despite the Russian oligarchs.

I agree. Wenger's not at that level, but I don't think anyone else is either. Comparing anyone to Ferguson is like comparing a striker to Henry. They will come up short but that doesn't mean they're no good.
Despite his flaws Wenger's not the idiot some on here make him out to be either.

[Niall_Quinn]

I agree. Wenger's not at that level, but I don't think anyone else is either. Comparing anyone to Ferguson is like comparing a striker to Henry. They will come up short but that doesn't mean they're no good.
Despite his flaws Wenger's not the idiot some on here make him out to be either.

He's not an idiot but he does some very idiotic things, and then does them again repeatedly.

[Kano]

It's frustrating because I don't agree with you and break it down to the simplest point. I've read your pots. We could have Kompany, Terry, and Fletcher....it doesn't solve our problems or increase our chances of winning a title again. It's that simple. You say the lack of cynicism is our biggest problem and essential to winning the PL. I disagree. I think your overemphasizing the importance of cynicism because I believe a superstar striker would enhance our chances by a great deal and without having the cynical player your talking about. I don't believe we're 4 players away from winning the league.

Also, just be careful with how you word things if you don't want me to get the wrong end of the stick.







Was I wrong to point out that the Invincibles won the Fair Play award? It's just a fact. They were tough, they could hold their own and had a physical presence but it's different to what your describing. It's not essential to every title winning team and I think you've overcooked the importance.

I couldn’t have been more clearer than repeating the same points in each post - you just haven't been paying close enough attention to them enough to incorporate the full context. Again, nowhere have I stated it is the most important element. It is a crucial aspect that will improve our chances but I have repeatedly gone on to quality that point further, along with the other elements need to improve our team. It’s all there in black and erm, grey.

And yes you are wrong to point out the Fair Play league because still, incredibly, you are reverting the conversation back to fouls. Cynicism/Gamesmanship isn’t merely about that. Being regarded as a bastard by opposing fans incorporates far more. I think we all know, or should do, that the teams of old weren't summed up by the Invincibles. We regularly picked up a steam of red and yellow cards throughout the entire period we were contesting the title for a 7/8 years. It is no coincidence that the attitude of the team was remarkably different to the one we have now, technical skills are not enough in this league. And again, just to repeat for the tenth time, that does not make it the most important aspect but one of many and it doesn’t mean you have to be Stoke to win the league.

And yes, at least 3/4 new players are needed. We have no wingers - a few guys that can run fast won’t cut it. They all want to play as striker or central midfield. They are just ‘doing a job’ not players who really know how to make the most of space, technically proficient enough to beat a man constantly, cross the ball, cut inside, drop back/push forward at the right times. We have a DM who hasn’t even played a full season of football yet, he needs help and someone else to learn from. We of course need striker. We need a stronger, better defender than we have because what we have isn’t good enough right now. We haven’t improved enough defensively to the point of making them comparably good enough to the better sides at the top, our defensive stats from last season show that clearly, all that happened is we stopped the absolute carnage that happened on a number of occasions in 13/14. We managed to look good against the mid to poor teams in the league, our poor return of points from the top 8 for the last two seasons shows that. There was no progression last year beyond winning a cup, which has no impact on our performances in the league.

[I am invisible]

...Interesting video and the comparison of the Invincibles. What the heck happened? Used to score goals in 5 passes now it takes us 500 to score 1.

Barcelona happened. Then WUMger thought he would abandon his own blueprint for success and (poorly) imitate theirs.

What happened was that the dipshits that are paid to run the game managed to mess the offside rule up to such an extent that everyone simply stopped playing the offside trap and high lines, and started to sit a lot deeper when defending. Football is pretty much all about attacking space, and that one moved changed where all the space was: in that first part of Wenger's Arsenal career, all the space was behind defensive lines, and the game was dominated by pacey forwards and wide men who could ruthlessly exploit it; since that offside rule change, all the space has shifted to the middle of the park, as the 2 opposing defences retreated further towards their own areas, and as a result we've seen teams sacrificing an attacker for an extra midfielder, with more emphasis placed on powerful, lone-CF types, who can hold their own in a packed area, and goal-scoring central midfielders, like Lampard and Gerrard.

Unfortunately, we were particularly slow in reacting to that change. We carried on plugging away with our high line and 4 pacey forwards (possibly because we enjoyed the most success with that style of play?) long after everyone else had switched to 451s / 433s, and it played right into our opponents' hands. Not only did we add to the problem of there being no space to work with in the final third, because we ended up pressing all our players deeper and deeper into the opponents half, trying to lay seige to packed areas (this is where all the extra touches started to creep into our game, as we were left probing for openings that weren't there), but we also ended up being the only team in the league who were still playing a high line and leaving acres of space in our own final third (or half!) to exploit, so we were easy pickings for counter-attacks.

Barcelona undoubtedly compounded the problem a few years later, by being so bloody good at that tippy-tappy crap, and making everyone want to emulate it, but IMO it was all that 'interfering with play' nonsense that did the most damage...

[Power n Glory]

I couldn’t have been more clearer than repeating the same points in each post - you just haven't been paying close enough attention to them enough to incorporate the full context. Again, nowhere have I stated it is the most important element. It is a crucial aspect that will improve our chances but I have repeatedly gone on to quality that point further, along with the other elements need to improve our team. It’s all there in black and erm, grey.

And yes you are wrong to point out the Fair Play league because still, incredibly, you are reverting the conversation back to fouls. Cynicism/Gamesmanship isn’t merely about that. Being regarded as a bastard by opposing fans incorporates far more. I think we all know, or should do, that the teams of old weren't summed up by the Invincibles. We regularly picked up a steam of red and yellow cards throughout the entire period we were contesting the title for a 7/8 years. It is no coincidence that the attitude of the team was remarkably different to the one we have now, technical skills are not enough in this league. And again, just to repeat for the tenth time, that does not make it the most important aspect but one of many and it doesn’t mean you have to be Stoke to win the league.

And yes, at least 3/4 new players are needed. We have no wingers - a few guys that can run fast won’t cut it. They all want to play as striker or central midfield. They are just ‘doing a job’ not players who really know how to make the most of space, technically proficient enough to beat a man constantly, cross the ball, cut inside, drop back/push forward at the right times. We have a DM who hasn’t even played a full season of football yet, he needs help and someone else to learn from. We of course need striker. We need a stronger, better defender than we have because what we have isn’t good enough right now. We haven’t improved enough defensively to the point of making them comparably good enough to the better sides at the top, our defensive stats from last season show that clearly, all that happened is we stopped the absolute carnage that happened on a number of occasions in 13/14. We managed to look good against the mid to poor teams in the league, our poor return of points from the top 8 for the last two seasons shows that. There was no progression last year beyond winning a cup, which has no impact on our performances in the league.

Yes, you have. I'm paying very close attention. Are you? I don't know what you're reading, but when you say things like the below....

I'll keep saying it - we have no cunts in the team. Almost zero cynicism.

Get that back into the spine of the first eleven and you'll see a massive difference.

Every successful team has their fair share, we used to. It's no surprise that since they left, we haven't won the league. We used to have players opposing teams loved to hate. Now? Not really. Just written off as skilful technicians.

The biggest problem was that the essential pub ethic that is so essential to winning the PL wasn't passed on by the Invincibles as it was to them by the back four of old. They all shipped out of the club too quickly and so there was no continuation of that ethic. Wenger was never going to instil it, that had to from the players but Wenger clearly didn't value it highly enough. That has been one of his biggest mistakes, especially when he leaves his players to their own devices to much.

That's your first post in the thread about this topic. Nothing taken out of context and the emphasis is cynicism. When use terms like 'massive difference', 'biggest problem' and 'essential to winning the PL', what do you expect? What message are you trying to convey. I don't know if it's just me but that whole message is focused on getting that back into our game. Mentions nothing of tactics, getting a goal scorer, being more organised, nothing.

Second post....

You don't think that Invincibles side had that in spades? Look at Chelsea, Man City or Man U. All have had and currently have horrible players that have the right mentality for this game. It's naive to think otherwise. Wenger has brainwashed even those fans that want him out into thinking his approach is the right way. It will never work in this league. It can't. It is too raw and aggressive to be played completely the right way. To be a winner you have to be cynical too, able to play dirty - sometimes more obviously than not - but without it you'll be a flash in the pan. The old guard at this club were English scrotes, who understand the horrible side of the game and that was taken on by physically strong players who had flair. Once they left, so did that cynicism and any hint of real success that came with it.

Every single title winning side has a few scrotes (as we clearly used to) combined with some flair and proper width.

Now this is the first and only time you mention proper width in your post but overall the emphasis on how other title winning teams have 'scrotes' in their team and since we've gotten rid of that mentality, we've won nothing. Again, overplaying the importance.

It comes down to mentality, one of knowing when to do the smaller, uglier things in a game that allows everything else to flourish. I can't think of a team, or a champion in any sport who doesn't understand how important that element is to their game. And no, one player is not going to change the direction of the club. That will only happen when the manager leaves and we can get rid of the deadwood in this squad. It is going to take far more than just one player to change the route we've fallen upon for so long.

This is all very long winded but you really can't accuse me of not reading your posts properly when you overemphasize one element of the game we lack. I break it down simply by asking if we added Terry, Kompany and Fletcher to our squad, would it everything flow from their and make us title contenders? No. It's not just a case of combing technical flair players with the cynical. Ok, now your saying it's not the most important aspect but read your posts again.

[Power n Glory]

What happened was that the dipshits that are paid to run the game managed to mess the offside rule up to such an extent that everyone simply stopped playing the offside trap and high lines, and started to sit a lot deeper when defending. Football is pretty much all about attacking space, and that one moved changed where all the space was: in that first part of Wenger's Arsenal career, all the space was behind defensive lines, and the game was dominated by pacey forwards and wide men who could ruthlessly exploit it; since that offside rule change, all the space has shifted to the middle of the park, as the 2 opposing defences retreated further towards their own areas, and as a result we've seen teams sacrificing an attacker for an extra midfielder, with more emphasis placed on powerful, lone-CF types, who can hold their own in a packed area, and goal-scoring central midfielders, like Lampard and Gerrard.

Unfortunately, we were been particularly slow in reacting to that change. We carried on plugging away with our high line and 4 pacey forwards (possibly because we enjoyed the most success with that style of play?) long after everyone else had switched to 451s / 433s, and it played right into our opponents' hands. Not only did we add to the problem of there being no space to work with in the final third, because we ended up pressing all our players deeper and deeper into the opponents half, trying to lay seige to packed areas (this is where all the extra touches started to creep into our game, as we were left probing for openings that weren't there), but we also ended up being the only team in the league who were still playing a high line and leaving acres of space in our own final third (or half!) to exploit, so we were easy pickings for counter-attacks.

Barcelona undoubtedly compounded the problem a few years later, by being so bloody good at that tippy-tappy crap, and making everyone want to emulate it, but IMO it was all that 'interfering with play' nonsense that did the most damage...

Yes, I agree with you on that. Henry said the arrival of Cesc changed the mentality as well and he's probably right. It's a combination of it all. But the question is how do we sort this problem out? Can we go back to our old way of playing? The thing I noticed more about the start of last season was the focus we had on defending deeper, holding our shape and counter attacking. Remember there was a period where we were happy to let our opponents have the ball or maybe it was the lack of cohesion in the middle that gave that impression. But as we grow more efficient with our passing and try to play in our opponents half, we have no space to work with. It's the tippy tappy crap. What's worse, even in games where there was space in the final third like in the Liverpool game, we're not looking to break on the team and attack the space behind. Maybe that's down to the wrong players being on the pitch but that probing for an opening style we have needs to go.

[Kano]

Yes, you have. I'm paying very close attention. Are you? I don't know what you're reading, but when you say things like the below....



That's your first post in the thread about this topic. Nothing taken out of context and the emphasis is cynicism. When use terms like 'massive difference', 'biggest problem' and 'essential to winning the PL', what do you expect? What message are you trying to convey. I don't know if it's just me but that whole message is focused on getting that back into our game. Mentions nothing of tactics, getting a goal scorer, being more organised, nothing.

Second post....





Now this is the first and only time you mention proper width in your post but overall the emphasis on how other title winning teams have 'scrotes' in their team and since we've gotten rid of that mentality, we've won nothing. Again, overplaying the importance.



This is all very long winded but you really can't accuse me of not reading your posts properly when you overemphasize one element of the game we lack. I break it down simply by asking if we added Terry, Kompany and Fletcher to our squad, would it everything flow from their and make us title contenders? No. It's not just a case of combing technical flair players with the cynical. Ok, now your saying it's not the most important aspect but read your posts again.

Exactly. Tiring. instead of responding to the argument you are just trying to pick holes in adjectives and part-quoting comments out of context. You do this all the time PnG and I'm not the only it wears thin on. I've said all I can on the subject. Make of it as you wish. Which you will of course.

[Power n Glory]

Exactly. Tiring. instead of responding to the argument you are just trying to pick holes in adjectives and part-quoting comments out of context. You do this all the time PnG and I'm not the only it wears thin on. I've said all I can on the subject. Make of it as you wish. Which you will of course.

Stop whinging and crying for help. I've taken nothing out of context. It's a simple disagreement and I've responded to your argument completely and disagree.