Who Will Win The League - 2

[Xhaka Can’t]

Is there anyone here trying to deprive Wenger of credit for the first stage of his career at Arsenal? Not sure there is. For me it's the special nature of that early success and the type of football we played that makes it even harder to bear his cowardice and two-faced dealings in later years.

Yes there is. There has been consistent allusions by some that the early success was down to Graham's team. While Graham's defence was a factor and it would be crazy to deny that, it was the philosophy of the early Wenger era that drove his team on to produce the most exciting football I have ever had the privilege to see.

And it was successful but ultimately should have been even more so .

[Power n Glory]

Yes there is. There has been consistent allusions by some that the early success was down to Graham's team. While Graham's defence was a factor and it would be crazy to deny that, it was the philosophy of the early Wenger era that drove his team on to produce the most exciting football I have ever had the privilege to see.

And it was successful but ultimately should have been even more so .

I'm definitely not saying that. We're talking specifically about the mentality of the squad and characters. The characters with the fighting and strong mentality came from Graham's team. You don't have to look far to see the foreign players we brought in talk of how tough Adams and Keown were and how much they learned about what it meant to be Arsenal from those guys. The North London Derby games and so on. Alex asked about previous Wenger teams and the mentality and I answered. You've said yourself the GG team was a factor and we're only discussing a factor of what's wrong with the team, so let's keep it at that and not assume something else is being said. Wenger was ahead of his time when he arrived and he earned a lot of respect from the GG players. Perfect marriage between continental flair and English football.

[alexander]

I'm definitely not saying that. We're talking specifically about the mentality of the squad and characters. The characters with the fighting and strong mentality came from Graham's team. You don't have to look far to see the foreign players we brought in talk of how tough Adams and Keown were and how much they learned about what it meant to be Arsenal from those guys. The North London Derby games and so on. Alex asked about previous Wenger teams and the mentality and I answered. You've said yourself the GG team was a factor and we're only discussing a factor of what's wrong with the team, so let's keep it at that and not assume something else is being said. Wenger was ahead of his time when he arrived and he earned a lot of respect from the GG players. Perfect marriage between continental flair and English football.

I think that 'English/british'backbone of players that most clubs had, is dying out. I think at the advent of the premier league, and when more and more foreign players started to pour into the league, it's being lost. I just don't see the leaders on the pitch now, from lots of teams. Back in the day there was Adams, Keane, Gerrard, Terry, these type of players that came through the ranks, or had been at the club a long time and passed on the values that the players from the past had done. There is more a journeyman feel to so many players now, that it's just not the same. When I look back at the times I used to go to watch, and a player like Adams could get the whole crowd and team going, same for someone like Keane or Gerard etc. The whole landscape of the game has changed, and I'm not sure if it will recover. It's probably why when a player like Jack or Alex Iwobi breaks through to the first team, it means so much to us, it's like one of our own making it, someone like Iwobi that has been at Arsenal 10 years before getting into the team. If he continues at the way he is going and doesn't end up like Wilshere, he is the type of player, that if he has the character, could be captain, it's that type of thing that gets the fans going and the team.

[Power n Glory]

I think that 'English/british'backbone of players that most clubs had, is dying out. I think at the advent of the premier league, and when more and more foreign players started to pour into the league, it's being lost. I just don't see the leaders on the pitch now, from lots of teams. Back in the day there was Adams, Keane, Gerrard, Terry, these type of players that came through the ranks, or had been at the club a long time and passed on the values that the players from the past had done. There is more a journeyman feel to so many players now, that it's just not the same. When I look back at the times I used to go to watch, and a player like Adams could get the whole crowd and team going, same for someone like Keane or Gerard etc. The whole landscape of the game has changed, and I'm not sure if it will recover. It's probably why when a player like Jack or Alex Iwobi breaks through to the first team, it means so much to us, it's like one of our own making it, someone like Iwobi that has been at Arsenal 10 years before getting into the team. If he continues at the way he is going and doesn't end up like Wilshere, he is the type of player, that if he has the character, could be captain, it's that type of thing that gets the fans going and the team.

Totally. I think we’ve seen all the top teams lose core players that embodied their clubs principles to retirement and old age. Where we’re different is that we dismantled our Invincible squad within a few seasons. It was brutal. Keown, Parlour, Wiltord, Edu, Kanu all left on a free after we won the title. We sold Vieira the next season. Pires went on a free after. Bergkamp retires. We let Sol go, we lose Cashley, we sell Lauren, we sell Henry, we sell Freddie and finally Lehman. Wiped that team out within a few years and brought in very young players that had no idea what it meant to be an Arsenal player or how to battle through a whole season. It was just too brutal. We didn’t retain anything from that era. We didn’t even allow long serving players to retire with us and go into coaching with us. The young players could have learned so much if those guys were around in the dressing room. It’s where we went wrong. Wiped the culture of the club out too quickly. Our rival clubs held on to their guys for as long as possible but we did the opposite.

[Letters]

Yes there is. There has been consistent allusions by some that the early success was down to Graham's team. While Graham's defence was a factor and it would be crazy to deny that, it was the philosophy of the early Wenger era that drove his team on to produce the most exciting football I have ever had the privilege to see.

And it was successful but ultimately should have been even more so.

It was a successful side because of his strengths and it wasn't more successful because Wenger has flaws. This is what people don't seem to recognise. Maybe this isn't what people think but it comes across like people think Wenger was this genius of a manager back in the day and is now a bumbling idiot ™. The fact is he revolutionised the English game with his fitness regime and his knowledge of the European game. For a while we were just better than everyone else. And yes, people do talk about the Graham defence and while that was a factor it wasn't the main one, and the Invincibles defence was entirely his own.

Now we're not better than everyone else. Other clubs have caught up and arguably overtaken us with the fitness methods and worldwide scouting network. The billionaires swept in and bought up titles right at a time when our funds were (relatively speaking) restricted. We've lost the edge Wenger initially gave us. He's done pretty well to keep us in the top 4 during the stadium move, now we've got the new financial deals we should be pushing on. The FA Cups bought him some time to do so but this year we really needed to challenge. We did for a while but now we've fallen away. But that doesn't mean that he's suddenly an idiot or that the last 10 years have been an unmitigated failure.

[selassie]

It's like he's in denial. Vieria did say his greatest strength is his faith in players but also said it's his weakness. I also have a beef with certain players but it goes back to the manager again. He seems to easily pleased with certain performances. Too forgiving when the results don't go.our way.

Aye, I remember that comment from Vieira and it's been said by some of the Old "English" core too, Dixon and Keown.

I agree that Wenger is ultimately the problem here, I'm not for one minute trying to absolve the players from blame but Wenger's approach quite clearly only works when the team has a core of experienced leader types, something we all know we haven't had for quite some time and Wenger is directly responsible for that because he's the one that builds the team.

[selassie]

It was a successful side because of his strengths and it wasn't more successful because Wenger has flaws. This is what people don't seem to recognise. Maybe this isn't what people think but it comes across like people think Wenger was this genius of a manager back in the day and is now a bumbling idiot ™. The fact is he revolutionised the English game with his fitness regime and his knowledge of the European game. For a while we were just better than everyone else. And yes, people do talk about the Graham defence and while that was a factor it wasn't the main one, and the Invincibles defence was entirely his own.

Now we're not better than everyone else. Other clubs have caught up and arguably overtaken us with the fitness methods and worldwide scouting network. The billionaires swept in and bought up titles right at a time when our funds were (relatively speaking) restricted. We've lost the edge Wenger initially gave us. He's done pretty well to keep us in the top 4 during the stadium move, now we've got the new financial deals we should be pushing on. The FA Cups bought him some time to do so but this year we really needed to challenge. We did for a while but now we've fallen away. But that doesn't mean that he's suddenly an idiot or that the last 10 years have been an unmitigated failure.

I haven't seen anyone suggesting Wenger was a genius back in the day. Wenger was undoubtedly a more competitive and progressive manager, he was up there with Fergie who begrudgingly was and has been the best manager in PL.

Back in the good old days Wenger built "balanced" squads that were packed full of players with the necessary skillsets and attributes to make us one of the best teams in the country over a sustained period of time. He wasn't doing anything out of the ordinary, he was just recruiting correctly and filling the team/squad with what it needed.

We lost the edge Wenger gave us through the points you have mentioned but also because he no longer builds balanced teams/squads, finances play a part in as much as that we can no longer cherry pick the best talent available, we couldn't really back in the day either so to speak. Despite that, the lack of funds doesn't mean Wenger has to mismanage his squad season after season, he happily paid out mega bucks in wages for his "projects" players back in the era of Project Youth so the money was there to some extent, it just wasn't and hasn't been used wisely for quite some time.

We have money now and nothing has changed, Wenger is still leaving us short and mismanaging the squad.

So he may not be a bumbling idiot now, but he's certainly not managing anywhere near the level we know he is capable of, why he makes the decisions he makes these days are anybody's guess.

[Power n Glory]

It was a successful side because of his strengths and it wasn't more successful because Wenger has flaws. This is what people don't seem to recognise. Maybe this isn't what people think but it comes across like people think Wenger was this genius of a manager back in the day and is now a bumbling idiot ™. The fact is he revolutionised the English game with his fitness regime and his knowledge of the European game. For a while we were just better than everyone else. And yes, people do talk about the Graham defence and while that was a factor it wasn't the main one, and the Invincibles defence was entirely his own.

Now we're not better than everyone else. Other clubs have caught up and arguably overtaken us with the fitness methods and worldwide scouting network. The billionaires swept in and bought up titles right at a time when our funds were (relatively speaking) restricted. We've lost the edge Wenger initially gave us. He's done pretty well to keep us in the top 4 during the stadium move, now we've got the new financial deals we should be pushing on. The FA Cups bought him some time to do so but this year we really needed to challenge. We did for a while but now we've fallen away. But that doesn't mean that he's suddenly an idiot or that the last 10 years have been an unmitigated failure.

On whose part is this misunderstood? Just looking at Bob’s and Alexander’s response to what I’ve said about Wenger’s previous teams, I think there is a misunderstanding on their part because I and others have been accused of revisionism and trying to strip Wenger off all his accomplishments. When younger, I thought Wenger was a genius but as the years have gone by and we’ve seen key components stripped away from the club (Old Guard, Vieira, Dein, etc) and Wenger being unable to reproduce the same results. Yes, the game has moved on and teams have improved but is it wrong to assume Wenger worked a lot better with figures like Dein and certain players? Surely we have to recognise the contribution from those that have left as well and consider their influence on the manager?

I said a long time ago Wenger wasn’t a great tactician and it was a pretty unpopular opinion when I said it on GW years back. So certain things being said now have been said before and not just a case of completely downgrading Wenger because where we are in the league. You say we were way better than the opposition when Wenger arrived and I agree with that totally. We were ahead of all of the Premier League teams tactically, fitness levels, technically, scouting etc. Yes, we’ve recently lost the edge but if we were way better than everyone else, when Chelsea arrived and then City, technically, we should have been way better than everyone else bar the 3 teams that were minted. So I don’t really go overboard with the Top 4 finishes.

[Niall_Quinn]

Wenger's past is only useful for comparison purposes and trying to explain why he is so behind the pace today. But I have heard fans saying the successes of his early years are sufficient that he should be allowed to write his own legacy, go when he wants, stay for as long as he wants, decide who will replace him. That's bullshit. The only thing we should be concerned with is what he's delivering today and it's not enough.

How would fans react if Wrighty was brought back as the main striker based on his amazing record with the club? Well the same goes for Wenger. As the banner says, thanks for the memories but goodbye. The only disrespect on show is Wenger's as he hangs on and refuses to leave even though he has failed to deliver time after time.

His legacy needs to be kept in context. It is not a magic shield, or it shouldn't be. It's not up to the fans to defend that legacy either. Wenger needs to do that himself, through his performances. Who would be criticising him if he was delivering results? In fact who would be criticising him after only one or two seasons off the pace? Very few. But it's 10 seasons and that's more than enough. While the efforts of his early years shouldn't be tarnished his performance in the later years can be rightly judged to be entirely unacceptable. Not just because he hasn't delivered, but because he's stubborn, arrogant, a man who refuses to listen to anyone or learn even from his own experience. Fans trying to sugar coat the last 10 years by pointing back even further don't have a leg to stand on. It's not Wenger's job to make excuses about why he can't deliver. It's his job to deliver regardless of the environment, as Ferguson did. We saw Arsenal and Utd battle it out season after season before the chavs arrived. After that Wenger can't get a look-in while Ferguson takes up the battle and holds his own. Wenger can make all the excuses he wants, but it wasn't the chavs that prevented him replacing Vieira, it wasn't the chavs that hired a bunch of tippy, tappy dwarfs to go up against the Neanderthals in the PL, it wasn't the gypos who signed Sanogo for us or brought Flamini back on a freebie. Wenger did all that. If he wants to make every decision on every issue then let him stand by those decisions when the shit comes down.

I would say enough excuses for Wenger now. They are tired, over used and they don't stand up to even the mildest scrutiny. Not after all this time. At what point, 10 seasons down the line and counting, do the hard core Wenger supporters (like that ginger on Arsenal Fan TV) twig what's happened here? Wenger. Plot. Lost. Seriously, wakey, wakey!

[Power n Glory]

Aye, I remember that comment from Vieira and it's been said by some of the Old "English" core too, Dixon and Keown.

I agree that Wenger is ultimately the problem here, I'm not for one minute trying to absolve the players from blame but Wenger's approach quite clearly only works when the team has a core of experienced leader types, something we all know we haven't had for quite some time and Wenger is directly responsible for that because he's the one that builds the team.

It's well documented. A lot of them talk highly of the English core and how tough they were on them. It really helped prepare them for the league and the toughness required.