The CL winners (if relevant) and the 4 league winners from the top 4 performing countries in Europe (the previous season) in the top seeds pot and then a points system based on league position and CL performance if you got to the QF or further in the CL the previous year to work out the rest of the teams in the top pot and 2nd pot etc etc (you get more points if you come from a major league obviously).
Last edited by Özim; 19-01-2013 at 11:29 PM.
Ah so it would still be four pots of eight then and with country proection still intact?
I dunno, there's still an inherent unfairness from your perspective by judging part of it for one performance in a season (away from domestic title winners) for what is, as you have said before is a competition that can be a bit of a lottery.
The pots can stay, it's just the way teams are classified in those pots that change.
The thing is you have to take into consideration the CL as that's the competition you're playing in, but what the system I propose does is reward the league winners with top seeding status (and CL winners) and then classifies the rest based on league performance and performance in the CL if they got past the group stages.
I agree it's not perfect, but I think you have to rewards progress in the CL somehow or else a semi finalist might deem it a little unfair. There is a lottery element which I mentioned incorporated, however since the league performance comes into it as well it's not as influential.
this is why i was trying to be very clear about the margin of victory and performance in all of those games. fair enough, you have tough group and you give your best. however, when you play the same team twice and on both occasions the other team is far and above the better performer then that sends a clear message. city should have been buried in that first game at madrid and got what they deserved come the end - even a draw would have been unfair. dortmund are only a surprise to those who have not (or been able to) taken note of their rise under klopp, so i would say the real surprise in the group was ajax who man city could not cope with at all - home or away.Originally Posted by Arse n Wonga
when arsenal beat sparta (i think it was them) 8-0 some years back, that gave a clear indication of the difference between the two teams, one that all of us agreed with. the same applies to city this season. when utd went out in the group stage last year they did not have their arse handed to them in every game, so you could pick out the other reasons why that happened. this year, after games against far superior opposition in their group, city could not claim to be unlucky or on an 'off' day. they were simply out of their depth and the point i am making is that when performances like that take place over the course of six games, against three other teams, then you can garner a clear idea of where the losing team stands.
Zim, for your system to work, that will mean changing the coefficients and in lieu of that, it also means you'll change what the top four leagues are, as those coeffiicients are based on what coefficient clubs attain over the last five seasons. For instance, Spain would've had huge contribution from Atletico Madrid to their current coefficient in order to be considered No.1 but if they qualify for the Champions League this season, they would be in a lower pot because they happened to not be in the Champions League that season.
What I am getting at is that you would need to work out another way of deciding as to what are the best four performing leagues are, which cannot use the current coefficient system.
As a note, interesting to check in answer to this that England are in danger of being the fifth best performing country in Europe this season. No surprises to see Spain and Germany at the top.
We're not just looking at City then, because they're a better side then us and ran Man U close recently (and won the league last season), they due to the seeding system found themselves in a much tougher group than the other two teams.
I agree the top Spanish and German sides are better than the English sides, but there's other factors that come into play in the CL that don't apply in the league.
That's what I mean Maccy, the coefficient would need to be based on one year (just like other sports), so the top 4 countries from the previous year in Europe would get their 4 league winners top seeded.
The 5 season coefficient doesn't work for me, simply because in 5 years a team's strength can change considerably and the CL which protects the top seeded teams and makes it fairly easy for them to get through to the knockout stages and thus keep their position in the top pot.
no but i think it's reflective of where the league standard is in terms of our 'best' teams against the big boys from overseas. city found themselves where they are because of non qualification the season before and were found extremely wanting when faced with teams who finished in similar positions in other countries.
it's the reason why no one believes utd will get close the final and of course why we will most likely go out in this round. in a complete knock out competition i'd agree that you'd struggle to get a clear picture of the dis/parity between countries but the extend nature of this competition does tell you something.
If I have got this right then, Man Utd could theoretically benefit by us doing really well in the Champions League and stay as a top seed, whereas for us our ranking could worsen? I don't see how that is particularly fair (nor is it likely but it's a scenario that could be played out by any inferior team in a league).
Five years is a measure of consistency across two competitions given equal weighting but look at what has occured this and last season by your own admission, rock hard groups. In your scenario is it more likely or less likely to get rock hard groups? If the latter then there isn't really much benefit for being a top seed anyway.
And there are other factors that work the other way round - in domestic leagues there are a greater concentration of weaker teams for instance. In the Champions League you face greater threats to your chances of winning it a lot sooner. In a league you have a greater chance of being able to recover from defeats, therefore should domestic leagues be given such a strong weighting or should it just be on the European competitions where the quality is further spread?
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