Should we just accept our lot as a club?

[Kano]

no i get that point and agree with that aspect but over so many years you would hope there would be a balance for a team like arsenal. i mean, you can understand tottenhams approach because they are desperate to get into the cl spaces and stay there - we are long established so should be in a position to juggle the four comps far more competitively.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

no i get that point and agree with that aspect but over so many years you would hope there would be a balance for a team like arsenal. i mean, you can understand tottenhams approach because they are desperate to get into the cl spaces and stay there - we are long established so should be in a position to juggle the four comps far more competitively.

Oh yeah deffo there is no excuse why we have no lifted a cup and Wenger and the Board and all those that run this club have to take the blame for club, well and the players too.

That team we put out VS Brum should have beat them easy. Had Kos and Ches not messed up we probs would have won it. But i agree other Selections made by Wenger have been Stupid and have cost us the cups.

But If It was the Winners of the league who got in the CL i'd say TPTB would have done alot more to make sure we got in it.

[IBK]

no i get that point and agree with that aspect but over so many years you would hope there would be a balance for a team like arsenal. i mean, you can understand tottenhams approach because they are desperate to get into the cl spaces and stay there - we are long established so should be in a position to juggle the four comps far more competitively.

Agree - but don't forget that we have also suffered astonishing injuries; done the hard part of the stadium project and had constantly to rebuild as well. I'm not sure we've juggled so badly.

[Kano]

Agree - but don't forget that we have also suffered astonishing injuries; done the hard part of the stadium project and had constantly to rebuild as well. I'm not sure we've juggled so badly.

please don't get me wrong, i haven't been an avid fan of wenger out or manically critical of arsenal over the past few years. we have managed to maintain our position in the top bracket against all odds at times and a season or two ago i probably would've argued that we have done all we could've.

it's more on reflection of the season gone, in particular the crawl to the finish line that has made me readdress some of the actions of wenger over the years.

[IBK]

please don't get me wrong, i haven't been an avid fan of wenger out or manically critical of arsenal over the past few years. we have managed to maintain our position in the top bracket against all odds at times and a season or two ago i probably would've argued that we have done all we could've.

it's more on reflection of the season gone, in particular the crawl to the finish line that has made me readdress some of the actions of wenger over the years.

I've enjoyed this thread. Bit of moderation. I reckon what you are saying is that everything considered if Wenger was the equal of SAF 10 years ago, and he is not now, results wise, he could have done better than he has. I think I agree with that - but with the proviso that he has over-achieved with a club of our resources. I think Wenger has declined. I guess the question is do we think he will change? Last Summer I did not think so. Now - with our finish despite the rollercoaster season, I think I would rather have Wenger than someone new, and I am hoping (new assistant; better camraderie; no key departures???) that he will show us that he can adapt and find the energy to push on again.

[Coney]

I've enjoyed this thread. Bit of moderation. I reckon what you are saying is that everything considered if Wenger was the equal of SAF 10 years ago, and he is not now, results wise, he could have done better than he has. I think I agree with that - but with the proviso that he has over-achieved with a club of our resources. I think Wenger has declined. I guess the question is do we think he will change? Last Summer I did not think so. Now - with our finish despite the rollercoaster season, I think I would rather have Wenger than someone new, and I am hoping (new assistant; better camraderie; no key departures???) that he will show us that he can adapt and find the energy to push on again.

I'll go with that.



I am still not sure to what extent keeping the money under control was necessary for the stadium rebuild which we did need and could have given the club serious financial issues. I share the frustration of those who say that maybe with a small spend on a couple of key players, we maybe could have won some silverware over the last few years - maybe even sneaked a title - and now that the basic stadium costs are sorted, bar a modest annual payment we can comfortably afford, I would have hoped we could have splashed out on players a bit sooner.

There are signs that we might change - whether it is Wenger actually changing his outlook or whether it is because he and/or the board now feel we can relax a bit on the buying front - it looks as if there is a serious intent to make some changes this summer. He has been quieter, not commenting much on the transfer front and has moved early for Podolski. He has also dropped very heavy hints of clearing out some dross. We'll (as usual) get a better idea over the next couple of months when we see who he buys and sells.



While a different manager with a different attitude from the board might have done better in getting results/trophies last year, I am not convinced any manager - operating on what is seen as the general financial constraints at the Arsenal - would have done better overall. We might have had someone who won us an FA Cup but in the same season saw us drop to 15th. While 'getting 4th' is not the be all and end all, not being in the top few for a couple of seasons could have a seriously bad effect on the club.



The project - getting a new stadium without getting into crippling debt - seems to have succeeded and it is time to move on. Wenger now has to do this or go. If he keeps RvP (a must, I think, even if only for one season) and in that time strengthens the squad and has a convincing year - maybe a bit of silver - then we can lose RvP next season on a free should he want to leave. In any case, I think we need to see a positive effort from the club to keep him now and to build the team around him that I think RvP is probably pressing for.



Enough. I'm backing out, learning java and keeping my head down a bit GW-wise for the summer because I know the speculation, bitching and other crap that is going to dominate this board till at least the end of August. While I'm fed up as any with the almosts and not-quites of the Arsenal both on the pitch and in the transfer market, I am heartily sick and tired of the same old shit on GW during transfer windows.

[LDG]

Enough. I'm backing out, learning java and keeping my head down a bit GW-wise for the summer because I know the speculation, bitching and other crap that is going to dominate this board till at least the end of August. While I'm fed up as any with the almosts and not-quites of the Arsenal both on the pitch and in the transfer market, I am heartily sick and tired of the same old shit on GW during transfer windows.

Shame. The rest of your post was spot on.

[IBK]

I'll go with that.



I am still not sure to what extent keeping the money under control was necessary for the stadium rebuild which we did need and could have given the club serious financial issues. I share the frustration of those who say that maybe with a small spend on a couple of key players, we maybe could have won some silverware over the last few years - maybe even sneaked a title - and now that the basic stadium costs are sorted, bar a modest annual payment we can comfortably afford, I would have hoped we could have splashed out on players a bit sooner.

There are signs that we might change - whether it is Wenger actually changing his outlook or whether it is because he and/or the board now feel we can relax a bit on the buying front - it looks as if there is a serious intent to make some changes this summer. He has been quieter, not commenting much on the transfer front and has moved early for Podolski. He has also dropped very heavy hints of clearing out some dross. We'll (as usual) get a better idea over the next couple of months when we see who he buys and sells.



While a different manager with a different attitude from the board might have done better in getting results/trophies last year, I am not convinced any manager - operating on what is seen as the general financial constraints at the Arsenal - would have done better overall. We might have had someone who won us an FA Cup but in the same season saw us drop to 15th. While 'getting 4th' is not the be all and end all, not being in the top few for a couple of seasons could have a seriously bad effect on the club.



The project - getting a new stadium without getting into crippling debt - seems to have succeeded and it is time to move on. Wenger now has to do this or go. If he keeps RvP (a must, I think, even if only for one season) and in that time strengthens the squad and has a convincing year - maybe a bit of silver - then we can lose RvP next season on a free should he want to leave. In any case, I think we need to see a positive effort from the club to keep him now and to build the team around him that I think RvP is probably pressing for.



Enough. I'm backing out, learning java and keeping my head down a bit GW-wise for the summer because I know the speculation, bitching and other crap that is going to dominate this board till at least the end of August. While I'm fed up as any with the almosts and not-quites of the Arsenal both on the pitch and in the transfer market, I am heartily sick and tired of the same old shit on GW during transfer windows.

I reckon its a case of be careful what you wish for. No manager (not even SAF) is infallible. Only a fool would not have had serious questions about AW at the beginning of the season, bnut strip everything away, and he has once again out performed 17 Premiership managers, and been beaten only by the best manager the Country has ever seen and the richest manager the country has ever seen. Add the kind of football that we have produced at times this season, and there is much less of a question mark for me now over whether Wenger should be given the opportunity to push on and maybe change things a little bit to achieve this.

[Alan B'stard]

This is not intended to be a thread about ambition. Every club and every manager should have an ambition to win the league. Whether they have the ability to do so is another matter.

There's plenty of debate about AW's pros and cons as a manager. My current view is that with no trophies fans could find fault in whatver manager we had. IMO the only manager who could pretty much guarantee a trophy with our squad is SAF. And he's a one off.

But most of the critcism of our players and manager seems to be based on the assumption that we should be winning the league, not also rans. I wonder whether its time to accept that our star has faded and that on the pure hard facts we will simply be making up the numbers for the foreseeable future.

Very few clubs stay on top forever. Who would have thought that Chelsea would be dethroned so quickly by an even richer owner. Liverpool looked like they were coming back under Benitez. Look how that ended. Blackburn are the first relegated premiership title holders. Villa, Newcastle, Leeds - all examples of clubs who had their time and gradually faded into obscurity. Manure have been on top for years - but are the biggest club in the world, with the best manager the country has seen. It may well be that even they have wilderness years once SAF retires.

We took a step up when Wenger arrived. Few would argue that Chelsea and City have been the main obstacles to our battle with Manure over the past few seasons.

Citeh have shown more clearly than ever before that money = titles. We are not paupers but only a fool would argue that we can compete with Citeh and Chelsea financially. In this changing climate does it not show welcome consistency to finish top 3 or 4 every year while balancing the books (and before anyone rages against our 'ambition' being solely to make money - this is not the point I am making. It is a fact that we have managed CL football every year while being the best example of a financially well run club that there is).

We are a still a destination club for good, if not the very best players. For the very best players we are a stepping stone, but can at least enjoy their services while they are young. We win far more games than we lose and are on TV every other week.

Is it time to accept what we have, and that we are not going to be title winners in this current cycle? And would it cause less angst to do so?

United and City spent huge. There is no catching those two for the forseeablee. We should be making more of a fist of things in the cups but beyond that shoring up 3rd place more comfortably is about as good as it will get for us.
And anyone giving it - 'fuck 3rd, id rather win the carling cup and finish 8th' needs to take a look at Liverpool.

[IBK]

United and City spent huge. There is no catching those two for the forseeablee. We should be making more of a fist of things in the cups but beyond that shoring up 3rd place more comfortably is about as good as it will get for us.
And anyone giving it - 'fuck 3rd, id rather win the carling cup and finish 8th' needs to take a look at Liverpool.

The way I'm reading things, if we win any cup next year while finishing 3rd we will have met fans' realistic expectations.