Match Thread Arsenal v West Brom 26/12/16 1-0 home win

[Power n Glory]

No, I don't think you are dismissing the tactics. Just wanted to make sure that the person who makes the most individual errors and also the most serious ones gets due credit -- Wenger.

You already know my thoughts on Wenger. But not all the goals we give away, games we lose and chances missed are tactical failings. When players fail to do the basics like we've seen over recent games, we lose points.

When players aren't fighting to win the ball back, contest the headers, not tracking back, not marking or closing down quick enough, getting beat on the near post, you have to take a look at the player first and ask questions. Is it tiredness, a lapse in concentration, bad form, etc. We've seen how a players perfomance can fall off a cliff during a match. There isn't much Wenger can do about that. But what he can do is make a sub if particular players are struggling or tired, bench them for a game or two if their form is off or have a serious word with them in training and getting them working on their weak areas. Studying videos of where they go wrong and what they should have done. But he does nothing and that's why he has to go. Nothing during the game or after.

Stories like the below, Bellerin telling the press Ozil doesn't train that hard, which coincides with Wenger telling the press around this time last year that he gives Ozil a lot of time off, they worry me.

http://metro.co.uk/2016/12/26/hector...senal-6345242/

http://www.skysports.com/football/ne...-between-games

That shouldn't be acceptable and you only have to listen to what Henry and RVP say of how Bergkamp trained to see how that inspired them as professionals. The manager gets so much wrong in all areas of our game, it goes beyond him being a poor tactician. He flat out makes bad decisions. You have to wonder what the camp is like off the pitch. Are other key players allowed to not train that often because we're worried about injuries and fitness? How does that effect the relationship between the players if they all don't have to train hard? Surely that has to disrupt the harmony and team spirit he often talks of and tries to build open? It's got to be more disruptive than unequal wages, right? But this all comes down to poor management. When we see so much confusion when it comes to how we press team, the above may explain it. It explains why the old man isn't up off his seat and demanding players work harder.

[Goonermerree]

I'm sure I remember Clichy saying that they trained harder at City.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I don't think it's a question of a or b, I agree with you that the players need to take responsibility for their lukewarm performances but that doesn't mean the manager should not.

As you've suggested yourself, Ozil doesn't train that hard and the manager gives him loads of time off. Now Ozil should be training harder especially with what we've paid for him and what he earns but who is making him train harder, why is he getting the time off?. If he's not being managed properly there is no incentive to up his performances if he gets in the team come what may.

We know from players who have been managed by Wenger that he isn't someone who will rock the boat, won't go into a match with a game plan and probably won't give his players stick when they are not performing and yet all of them speak highly of him precisely because they know they get an easy ride.

I don't think these players respect the manager and Wenger is not assertive enough to command that respect, he has benefited in the past from having natural leaders in the team but I think he doesn't like having leaders in the side because he doesn't want his methods or approach questioned because he doesn't have the strength of character to put up with his managerial ability being placed under scrutiny. If the press does it he accuses them of being disrespectful

[Power n Glory]

I'm sure I remember Clichy saying that they trained harder at City.

I'm not surprised. I always remember Cesc's comments about training with Spain and Barca compared to Arsenal. We get enough hints about the atmosphere when the players keep referring to having fun and enjoying their football whilst Wenger will always herald displays of patience and composure from our players but at the same time bemoan the lack of urgency and sharpness when things go wrong.

[Goonermerree]

I'm not surprised. I always remember Cesc's comments about training with Spain and Barca compared to Arsenal. We get enough hints about the atmosphere when the players keep referring to having fun and enjoying their football whilst Wenger will always herald displays of patience and composure from our players but at the same time bemoan the lack of urgency and sharpness when things go wrong.

Probably why they're always tired, they're not fit enough!

[Power n Glory]

]I don't think it's a question of a or b, I agree with you that the players need to take responsibility for their lukewarm performances but that doesn't mean the manager should not.[/B]

As you've suggested yourself, Ozil doesn't train that hard and the manager gives him loads of time off. Now Ozil should be training harder especially with what we've paid for him and what he earns but who is making him train harder, why is he getting the time off?. If he's not being managed properly there is no incentive to up his performances if he gets in the team come what may.

We know from players who have been managed by Wenger that he isn't someone who will rock the boat, won't go into a match with a game plan and probably won't give his players stick when they are not performing and yet all of them speak highly of him precisely because they know they get an easy ride.

I don't think these players respect the manager and Wenger is not assertive enough to command that respect, he has benefited in the past from having natural leaders in the team but I think he doesn't like having leaders in the side because he doesn't want his methods or approach questioned because he doesn't have the strength of character to put up with his managerial ability being placed under scrutiny. If the press does it he accuses them of being disrespectful

Seriously, what are you reading? I'm not suggesting it's an A or B type situation or suggesting the manager shouldn't take responsibility.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Seriously, what are you reading? I'm not suggesting it's an A or B type situation or suggesting the manager shouldn't take responsibility.

All i'm saying is there's an argument to be made that even when the players aren't pulling their weight it's ultimately just as much the manager's fault

If you agree with that, than it's all cool in the gang.

[Power n Glory]

All i'm saying is there's an argument to be made that even when the players aren't pulling their weight it's ultimately just as much the manager's fault

If you agree with that, than it's all cool in the gang.

An argument to be made? Again, what are you reading in my post that suggests otherwise?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

An argument to be made? Again, what are you reading in my post that suggests otherwise?

"When players aren't fighting to win the ball back, contest the headers, not tracking back, not marking or closing down quick enough, getting beat on the near post, you have to take a look at the player first and ask questions. Is it tiredness, a lapse in concentration, bad form, etc. We've seen how a players perfomance can fall off a cliff during a match. There isn't much Wenger can do about that"

I took from this that the players and only the players were responsible for this, if that's not the case than fair enough. But responding like a little girl whose had the hair on her favourite my little pony shaved off doesn't help you much either.

[Power n Glory]

"When players aren't fighting to win the ball back, contest the headers, not tracking back, not marking or closing down quick enough, getting beat on the near post, you have to take a look at the player first and ask questions. Is it tiredness, a lapse in concentration, bad form, etc. We've seen how a players perfomance can fall off a cliff during a match. There isn't much Wenger can do about that"

I took from this that the players and only the players were responsible for this, if that's not the case than fair enough. But responding like a little girl whose had the hair on her favourite my little pony shaved off doesn't help you much either.

Followed by...

When players aren't fighting to win the ball back, contest the headers, not tracking back, not marking or closing down quick enough, getting beat on the near post, you have to take a look at the player first and ask questions. Is it tiredness, a lapse in concentration, bad form, etc. We've seen how a players perfomance can fall off a cliff during a match. There isn't much Wenger can do about that. But what he can do is make a sub if particular players are struggling or tired, bench them for a game or two if their form is off or have a serious word with them in training and getting them working on their weak areas. Studying videos of where they go wrong and what they should have done. But he does nothing and that's why he has to go. Nothing during the game or after.

And

The manager gets so much wrong in all areas of our game, it goes beyond him being a poor tactician. He flat out makes bad decisions. You have to wonder what the camp is like off the pitch. Are other key players allowed to not train that often because we're worried about injuries and fitness? How does that effect the relationship between the players if they all don't have to train hard? Surely that has to disrupt the harmony and team spirit he often talks of and tries to build open? It's got to be more disruptive than unequal wages, right? But this all comes down to poor management. When we see so much confusion when it comes to how we press team, the above may explain it. It explains why the old man isn't up off his seat and demanding players work harder.

It would help if you could read the whole post before responding otherwise don't bother. You're not an idiot and I can only assume it's a slow day at work and you're on the WUM.