What is stalling Theo??

[selassie]

The reason why the club is prepared to pay for potential is the same reason it generally refuses to pay older players. It's run as a business, with a sharp eye on maximising value.

A player may feel he is entitled to a certain wage, based on what he has done in the past, but from an employers point of view, it's not what you have done, but what you will do, over the span of your next contract that should determine your value to the side and therefore your wage.

Older players on high wages but declining in value and usefulness are an inefficient way to spend your cash (although that doesn't mean that we shouldn't have made some exceptions).

Young players are well rewarded, not only for their future worth, but for their future improvement.

Which brings me to Theo. Within our pay structure £90k puts him pretty much near the top. To rate that, he will need to operate at a level more like say, his Newcastle performance or above, and less like his Swansea performance (or below) for the duration of his contract, 3-4 years.

This is why Theo's consistency is a concern. At his best, he is worth it more or less. At his worst, he isn't, not even close. I think the club's £75k offer was reflective of this.

Yep that's a totally logical way of evaluating how we operate and I do agree, though I would add player marketability to the table too. Not in the sense of what they are worth as a Football player, but more in terms of the merchandise they sell and their brand appeal. For example, I would expect Theo and Jack to sell far more shirts than say established players such as Sagna and Vermaelen. I think this is one aspect folks have missed out on when taking into account players/agents negotiating their wages.

The club can't have it both ways...because if it really was purely about Footballing ability then we wouldn't have this "ideological" wage structure in the first place.

[Gervinho's Forehead]

"Footballing reasons"

[Syn]

There were plenty of occasions last year when van Persie popped up with a goal which turned 1 point into 3. He's doing it this year for Utd. That isn't over-rated, he did it in the Manchester Derby and it could be the difference between ManYoo being champions or not. Last year van Persie was the difference between us being top 4 and not. That isn't over-rated.

I know, I'm not saying any different. What I'm adding is that people over think the 'big game player' stuff.
Most of our games are against teams worse than us. So if we have a flat track bully, who cares? At least he can help us win the games we're supposed to win.

[Power n Glory]

The reason why the club is prepared to pay for potential is the same reason it generally refuses to pay older players. It's run as a business, with a sharp eye on maximising value.

A player may feel he is entitled to a certain wage, based on what he has done in the past, but from an employers point of view, it's not what you have done, but what you will do, over the span of your next contract that should determine your value to the side and therefore your wage.

Older players on high wages but declining in value and usefulness are an inefficient way to spend your cash (although that doesn't mean that we shouldn't have made some exceptions).

Young players are well rewarded, not only for their future worth, but for their future improvement.

Which brings me to Theo. Within our pay structure £90k puts him pretty much near the top. To rate that, he will need to operate at a level more like say, his Newcastle performance or above, and less like his Swansea performance (or below) for the duration of his contract, 3-4 years.

This is why Theo's consistency is a concern. At his best, he is worth it more or less. At his worst, he isn't, not even close. I think the club's £75k offer was reflective of this.

I think players need to be paid according to market value. If Jack can walk into any team and command around £85k then it's our job to remain competitive make sure we keep him at the club. It's the same for Theo. But I find it hard to agree with anyone that's suggesting he should one of the highest paid in the club because of his past performances. He's had too short of career for that.

[Gervinho's Forehead]

I know, I'm not saying any different. What I'm adding is that people over think the 'big game player' stuff.
Most of our games are against teams worse than us. So if we have a flat track bully, who cares? At least he can help us win the games we're supposed to win.

I think that part of it comes from the manager's philosophy rather than an individual player.

[Syn]

Syn…you’re acting like an idiot. You’re usually level headed and there is no need to adopt that tone with me. Keep it cool without the insults and listen to my argument.

There is no dispute about Wilshere’s talent but if people are going to talk about consistency and performances related to pay, then Jack hasn’t earned that £85k simply because he hasn’t been in this squad long enough or played consistently as the top player that drags the team with him when everyone is slacking. That doesn’t mean he can’t do it. But it’s idiotic for anyone to look at Theo and ask what’s he done over then look at Jack and say it’s justified. He’s only played one full season for goodness sake. It’s flawed logic.

If we’re saying JW should earn as much as all the other important first teamers, that’s another issue and fair enough. If all the first team players around that mark, then fair play, but you can’t argue he’s earned it through performances in such a short space of time. Even with Cesc, he wasn’t earning next to the same amount as Henry after a couple of seasons, it doesn’t matter about the going rate at that time he wasn’t propelled to the top that quickly. But at the end of the day, the value of the player doesn’t really matter as long as they’re playing for us. It shouldn’t be an issue for fans.

You've turned it around entirely. Read back. The discussion was about you using Wilshere and his contract to suggest Theo deserves equal or more. There's a clear difference in saying 'if Jack deserves that, so does Theo' and 'if theo deserves that, so does jack'. And you recognise that through taking logic 101. Your argument is bullshit because, quite simply, Wilshere is the far superior footballer who puts in better performances consistently. And that's all that matters. Also, I'm never an idiot, I'm just a dick to those being idiotic.

[Syn]

I think that part of it comes from the manager's philosophy rather than an individual player.

Oh. I don't. There is little reason why a player would be able to perform against limited opposition and not better opposition unless that player was limited himself. It might take something special to perform against good opposition whereas walking all over the limited is easier. But, as I say, who cares? We're not playing Man Utd every week and we are not even beating Southampton, so roll on the flat track bullies.

[Power n Glory]

You've turned it around entirely. Read back. The discussion was about you using Wilshere and his contract to suggest Theo deserves equal or more. There's a clear difference in saying 'if Jack deserves that, so does Theo' and 'if theo deserves that, so does jack'. And you recognise that through taking logic 101. Your argument is bullshit because, quite simply, Wilshere is the far superior footballer who puts in better performances consistently. And that's all that matters. Also, I'm never an idiot, I'm just a dick to those being idiotic.

Go back and check the argument because you just jumped the gun and got all hot headed. Jack hasn't contributed more than Theo and that was where I started at so it's nuts for anyone to talk about Theo's performances as if he's contributed less. I haven't flipped anything and again, calm yourself down and stop acting all sensitive.

[Joker]

I don't think we can say that Wilshere puts in better performances consistently. He played almost all of 10-11 and was understandably inconsistent given that it was his first season at the top. The fact that he put in some superb individual performances (Barca at home and the CC Final against Birmingham) has somewhat clouded the fact that there were quite a few games that season where he struggled to make a huge impact. That doesn't mean he didn't have a good season (indeed, he performed infinitely better than Theo did in his first full season at Arsenal) but he wasn't consistently 7-8/10. Then, he got injured and missed all of the next season and has only just returned this year, where again he's been very good some games, decent/off colour in others which is again understandable.

Earlier in thread it's been said that Wilshere is given £80K/week because of future potential, and I agree with that (same with Theo, even if you think Wilshere will be the better footballer Theo's past productivity and progression suggests he'll continue to be a very important source of goals/assists for us). However, if the argument is that Wilshere deserves more because he has played better than Walcott on a consistent basis so far at Arsenal, IMO that doesn't ring true at all. Over the last 2 seasons Walcott has been one of the most consistent performers at the club.

[IBK]

I'm not overrating him at all, just explaining what he produces and provides for the team. His stats this season are what 14 goals and 11 assists in 20 odd games, a fair few of them have been sub appearances too. Last season he reached double figures in both assists and goals. The season before was pretty much the same.

Theo may not be the finished article and I agree he does lack a brain and technical skills at times but his stats are not to be scoffed at. You say I'm overrating him? So we lose him, who do you realistically want to replace him with who's going to immediately replicate his stats?

Theo absolutely isn't inconsistent in our team, he's proving the opposite, to be a very consistent performer.

Some of you guys amaze me! You complain about the team yet are happy for our best players to be sold...have you not seen our transfer policy over the past 5 years? If he's sold he won't be replaced!

I agree. Football supporting is sometimes a feel, and Theo feels like he's one of our only players who can produce class at times. Very few players can do so every game (Messi; RVP; Ronaldo), but we shouldn't underestimate Theo for all that. His response to his contractual position has been exemplary (have we forgotten Cesc; Nasri; Adebayor; RVP so quickly?), and he has convinced me - a former critic.