When do we start to believe ?

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Originally Posted by Letters

No, but no matter who our manager is there's no way we can compete with them in the transfer or salary market.
We can't buy £30m players and have them on the bench as backup like they can. Our squad does need to be stronger but if we buy an expensive flop there is a consequence, with City and Chelsea there isn't, they can just keep on spending till they get it right.

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Was ozil not on the bench against stoke??And arshavin spent most of his arsenal career warming it as well?

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Originally Posted by AFC Leveller

Good post.

I think this team is crying out for Suarez (note: nota A Suarez but Suarez himself because he's one of a kind). We need a lethal player, a guy who runs, terrifies defenders, wins his duals, scores goals in the tight games etc. We dont have that right now and the fact that we have challenged is a testament to the squad and management team.

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Ozil has to be held accountable for his performances. Chelsea have been without a world class striker for a while now and that didn’t stop Mata or Hazard from stepping up to the plate. It didn’t stop Cazorla last season. We should be seeing more from Ozil and I guess we’ll have to wait until next season.

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Originally Posted by saintnickle

Was ozil not on the bench against stoke??And arshavin spent most of his arsenal career warming it as well?

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That's a really stupid post, I'm sure you know why.

As far as i know, Özil is one of the players that have created most chances in the premier League, he would probably have been top assister if our players had not failed to score on them.

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Originally Posted by JonasTC

As far as i know, Özil is one of the players that have created most chances in the premier League, he would probably have been top assister if our players had not failed to score on them.

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http://news.arseblog.com/2014/03/ozi...edium=facebook

Mesut Ozil says he pays no real attention to the criticism that has been cast his way in recent weeks.

While acknowledging his form hasn’t been as good as he would like, the German international says that’s a natural consequence of settling into a new country and a new league.

He also suggests the English press will find something else to write about in a few weeks time when he stops being ‘flavour’ of the Fleet Street month.

“Nearly every player who is new to Premier League needs time to settle in,” he said to Bild.

“Here, you meet other challenges. It was clear that I would endure a difficult spell because I missed all of Arsenal’s pre-season preparation.

“There was a time when I was not satisfied with my performances either, but I have come through this phase. I don’t concern myself too much with the criticism.

“Three weeks ago they wrote totally different stories and, in three weeks’ time, they’ll write different stories once again. That’s part of the business in England.”

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:faint:

Not sure what point you're trying to make. I just stated a fact in support of that he hasnt been as bad as people make him out to be (Arsenals Torres, etc.), can he be better? Most certainly, and im sure he will be :)

I give up.

:patrice:

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Originally Posted by LDG

Don't get me wrong. You always write very well, and I get your points. But you're also losing sight of some key things, which, is a consequence of the ability to judge a team whenever is convenient, ignoring some of the other factors which are extremely important, and aren't just a reaction at any given time.

Liverpool are unique this year, in that they have clicked wonderfully well up top, but also haven't had to deal with too much by way of fatigue, rotation etc, meaning they have been able to field a consistent eleven. We all know how important it is to have "relationships" on the pitch. Couple that with one superstar player, and it's not hard to see why they have been a success. I would has at a guess that throwing in ECL football next term, and testing their squad (which needs serious investment....and lets not forget they have a 50m loss on thier books this tem) will see them struggle a little more.....they're also not under the spotlight in the same way our team are.

City and Chelsea don't need much talking over. They don't need to build, develop and do things through too much hardwork. As NQ has said before; Injuries don't mean a thing to a team like theirs. It has no bearing on them. Hence you can't really judge us against them.

And where, relative to our season, are Utd, Spurs and the like? Why are you not judging us against them, rather than against our direct (atm) competitors?

Let me also say, that you, being a reasonable chap, should also remember not to judge players too quickly. In Ozil, we have an extremely good player. But there are so many things you have to consider when you lok at his signing alone...long before you call him a flop.

i) It's his first season in a new league. Yes, some players adapt straight away, but lots don't. There are very few who set a trailblazing run of form in their first term. A player of his calibre will succeed given the time.

ii) You have to look at the team he's currently playing in. It doesn't suit him...YET. He needs a Suarez (who it seems we were very unlucky not to get). He needs Walcott. He needs Ramsey, and he needs TIME.

As far as our style of play goes. Well, I'm sorry, but playing the way we play (frustrating as it is) requires things to drop into place. There are still pieces of the jigsaw to put together. We can all see that.

We have all been patient, so I get the wish to see us sweep to glory NOW. But when you look at what has actually happened over the last year or so, it does bode well, but it won't happen over night. We still need our star striker. Desperately. But when we have him....I for one believe that it will change the whole team. The style, the movement etc. But also, it's like connecting the electricity to all of the other components.

Do I believe? Yes. Can we win it this year, now? Not so sure. But I don't think many of us did.

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:gp: And it deserves a proper response.

Firstly, I am neither judging the team 'when convenient', nor am I reacting to our situation at this given time. While as every fan should, I can be emotional after a good or bad result, the whole purpose of going into greater detail about why I am, with some justification, yet to believe was to show that my position is not merely a reaction to recent poor results.

The basic issue that seems to be up for debate here is whether we have made substantial progress this year as a team. I say substantial, because it is self-evident that we have improved in defence as a unit - in large part because, like Liverpool up front we have stability and players - particularly in the CB positions, who compliment each other. This has not happened for years. Also, our points total was also higher than last season, last time I looked. Noone can deny that in these 2 areas there has been an improvement.

But firstly, I would argue that an 'improvement' in these areas has not, as yet, seen any step-change in our Arsenal's effectiveness as a competitive team. Put another way - we need more than simply cutting out our previous errors to make real forward progress. I accept that those posters more optimistic (or maybe more wishful thinkers) than I am may see where we are as the basis of real improvement going forwards - and I am not debating that separate issue here. I am trying to take an objective approach as to what has really changed this season. And as I have explained, other than better defensive stability I see little, if anything, to demonstrate that any of the fundamental issues that have hampered Wenger's teams of the past few years have been resolved, and nothing to suggest that we are more capable of besting the strongest teams in the league than we have been previously.

Secondly, like it or not we are in a league - and any improvement will, and should always be judged against those teams that we need to leapfrog to show tangible progress in this regard. Without yet going into specifics, we are a team that has finished 4th in the league since 2006, with the exception of 2 seasons where we finished 3rd. This season the smart money says we'll finish 4th again, or 3rd if we are lucky. Looking at the facts - what has changed? I accept that we are up against financial doping - but a few points arise here. Firstly, and as has rightly been pointed out, the fact that We have two billionaire funded clubs makes no difference whatsoever to many of the issues that I have identified with our team. Secondly, the whole stadium move was intended for us to be able to compete against the then huge financial muscle of Manure. Are we honestly saying that because 2 more financial giants have arrived on the scene then we should simply accept that we can't compete and regard 4th place as the highest place that a club with our resources can finish? Because this is the inevitable conclusion to be reached by your statement that we cannot be judged against the likes of the Chavs and Citeh. Ferguson was not cowed by having far fewer resources than these clubs - and you can bet that neither would Danny Fizman or David Dein. We did not used to be so defeatist when we beat Manure to the league title, despite our tiny ground and having a fraction of the resources and marketing income.

Another point that is rarely mentioned when considering the ‘opposition’ is the advantages that we have enjoyed, relative to them. In massive contrast to both the Chavs and Citeh, we have had the stability of a manager with huge experience of the EPL and an absolutely guaranteed position – no pressure from a capricious owner and absolute control over what happens on and off the pitch. That alone serves to balance out, in part some of the financial advantages enjoyed by others. Yet through all the turmoil at these other 2 clubs, it seems to have made no tangible difference. We are most likely set to attain our usual league position despite the obvious setbacks that have been suffered by 2 other managers in trying to settle on their best teams and deal with the legacies left to them by others – not to mention Manure falling off a cliff. When you look at how Benitez and Mancini fared last season, it’s difficult to argue that we should never look beyond just money.

I have to say that while it may be logical to make excuses based on the finances of the competition, it is also defeatist - and in danger of becoming a permanent psychological limiter on the ambitions of our club and its supporters. Indeed - it seems to have fundamentally altered the mindset of our once winning manager, and while I am not totally convinced, I do have some sympathy with those that argue that Wenger's greatest crime is brainwashing Gooners into believing that finishing fourth is a trophy. The reality is that finishing fourth is no more, and no less from a financial point of view than a club of our size and resources should be doing - and certainly not a step change. To answer your question – this is why I look up, rather than down in considering our progress. Why should Spurs be relevant when with 1 exception that have never finished top 4 in the EPL? Why should Manure be relevant when they have imploded so spectacularly this season? What achievement is treading water in the league – no matter whether the composition of those finishing above us has at the end of the season may have changed slightly?

As for Liverpool – I accept what you are saying about the advantages, and perhaps the luck that they have enjoyed this season. But that ignores some fundamentals that I am afraid reflect badly on our own team by comparison. Firstly, Rogers has transformed several of his players – Sterling; Sturridge; Coutinho; Henderson – not to mention changing Gerard’s role out of all recognition to how they were before. Wenger has succeeded in the same spectacular way with just 1 player this season, and he has been injured for a large part of it. You talk about Liverpool’s good fortune with their forwards. As I’ve said, we have had similar luck with our defenders. Yet Liverpool are undoubtedly on an upwards trajectory – and we all know how important confidence and belief are in football. We have, and continued to stutter as we always do – and that is the reason why Liverpool are flavor of the month and the jury has always been out on our team and continues to be so – no matter how long we topped the league for. Liverpool’s team is balanced. Ours is not. Liverpool consistently overwhelm teams going forwards. We rarely do. Liverpool are dynamic. We are turgid. Most importantly, there is no doubt whatsoever that Liverpool have made proper progress this season. However optimistic you are, It’s impossible to argue that we have come nowhere near this level of progress – or that Liverpool fans have more reason to believe than we do, at this moment in time. You talk about a jigsaw – well Rogers seems pretty much to have finished his jigsaw, while the truth is that Wenger has had years to make his jigsaw work, and has failed to do so. Again – I am not commenting on the future. I am looking at the now.

Finally, Ozil. Please do not get me wrong. I have not passed final judgment on this player - and I cannot therefore be accused of calling him a flop in any terminal sense. What I am commenting on is his performance this season. And for such a feted player, this season has simply not been a success. I am worried, with good reason, about his disappearance in most of the big games we have played this season. I am worried by what we have seen about his mentality, and I am worried about whether, given the other players that Wenger has built his team around – particularly the preponderance of playmakers Ozil was the right player to spend that kind of money on. You have obviously seen him in action for RM and I imagine you are basing your view on him on that. It is legitimate, and not reactionary for me to ask whether he is a player that thrives with a team full of world class players around him, where the pressure is not on him, rather than being a player who can step up to be the main man in our team. Whether he will come good or not is pure speculation I’m afraid. I have never argued about whether or not he should be given time to see what happens.

:gp:

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We did not used to be so defeatist when we beat Manure to the league title, despite our tiny ground and having a fraction of the resources and marketing income.

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That's a strong point.

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Originally Posted by IBK

:gp: And it deserves a proper response.

Firstly, I am neither judging the team 'when convenient', nor am I reacting to our situation at this given time. While as every fan should, I can be emotional after a good or bad result, the whole purpose of going into greater detail about why I am, with some justification, yet to believe was to show that my position is not merely a reaction to recent poor results.

The basic issue that seems to be up for debate here is whether we have made substantial progress this year as a team. I say substantial, because it is self-evident that we have improved in defence as a unit - in large part because, like Liverpool up front we have stability and players - particularly in the CB positions, who compliment each other. This has not happened for years. Also, our points total was also higher than last season, last time I looked. Noone can deny that in these 2 areas there has been an improvement.

But firstly, I would argue that an 'improvement' in these areas has not, as yet, seen any step-change in our Arsenal's effectiveness as a competitive team. Put another way - we need more than simply cutting out our previous errors to make real forward progress. I accept that those posters more optimistic (or maybe more wishful thinkers) than I am may see where we are as the basis of real improvement going forwards - and I am not debating that separate issue here. I am trying to take an objective approach as to what has really changed this season. And as I have explained, other than better defensive stability I see little, if anything, to demonstrate that any of the fundamental issues that have hampered Wenger's teams of the past few years have been resolved, and nothing to suggest that we are more capable of besting the strongest teams in the league than we have been previously.

Secondly, like it or not we are in a league - and any improvement will, and should always be judged against those teams that we need to leapfrog to show tangible progress in this regard. Without yet going into specifics, we are a team that has finished 4th in the league since 2006, with the exception of 2 seasons where we finished 3rd. This season the smart money says we'll finish 4th again, or 3rd if we are lucky. Looking at the facts - what has changed? I accept that we are up against financial doping - but a few points arise here. Firstly, and as has rightly been pointed out, the fact that We have two billionaire funded clubs makes no difference whatsoever to many of the issues that I have identified with our team. Secondly, the whole stadium move was intended for us to be able to compete against the then huge financial muscle of Manure. Are we honestly saying that because 2 more financial giants have arrived on the scene then we should simply accept that we can't compete and regard 4th place as the highest place that a club with our resources can finish? Because this is the inevitable conclusion to be reached by your statement that we cannot be judged against the likes of the Chavs and Citeh. Ferguson was not cowed by having far fewer resources than these clubs - and you can bet that neither would Danny Fizman or David Dein. We did not used to be so defeatist when we beat Manure to the league title, despite our tiny ground and having a fraction of the resources and marketing income.

Another point that is rarely mentioned when considering the ‘opposition’ is the advantages that we have enjoyed, relative to them. In massive contrast to both the Chavs and Citeh, we have had the stability of a manager with huge experience of the EPL and an absolutely guaranteed position – no pressure from a capricious owner and absolute control over what happens on and off the pitch. That alone serves to balance out, in part some of the financial advantages enjoyed by others. Yet through all the turmoil at these other 2 clubs, it seems to have made no tangible difference. We are most likely set to attain our usual league position despite the obvious setbacks that have been suffered by 2 other managers in trying to settle on their best teams and deal with the legacies left to them by others – not to mention Manure falling off a cliff. When you look at how Benitez and Mancini fared last season, it’s difficult to argue that we should never look beyond just money.

I have to say that while it may be logical to make excuses based on the finances of the competition, it is also defeatist - and in danger of becoming a permanent psychological limiter on the ambitions of our club and its supporters. Indeed - it seems to have fundamentally altered the mindset of our once winning manager, and while I am not totally convinced, I do have some sympathy with those that argue that Wenger's greatest crime is brainwashing Gooners into believing that finishing fourth is a trophy. The reality is that finishing fourth is no more, and no less from a financial point of view than a club of our size and resources should be doing - and certainly not a step change. To answer your question – this is why I look up, rather than down in considering our progress. Why should Spurs be relevant when with 1 exception that have never finished top 4 in the EPL? Why should Manure be relevant when they have imploded so spectacularly this season? What achievement is treading water in the league – no matter whether the composition of those finishing above us has at the end of the season may have changed slightly?

As for Liverpool – I accept what you are saying about the advantages, and perhaps the luck that they have enjoyed this season. But that ignores some fundamentals that I am afraid reflect badly on our own team by comparison. Firstly, Rogers has transformed several of his players – Sterling; Sturridge; Coutinho; Henderson – not to mention changing Gerard’s role out of all recognition to how they were before. Wenger has succeeded in the same spectacular way with just 1 player this season, and he has been injured for a large part of it. You talk about Liverpool’s good fortune with their forwards. As I’ve said, we have had similar luck with our defenders. Yet Liverpool are undoubtedly on an upwards trajectory – and we all know how important confidence and belief are in football. We have, and continued to stutter as we always do – and that is the reason why Liverpool are flavor of the month and the jury has always been out on our team and continues to be so – no matter how long we topped the league for. Liverpool’s team is balanced. Ours is not. Liverpool consistently overwhelm teams going forwards. We rarely do. Liverpool are dynamic. We are turgid. Most importantly, there is no doubt whatsoever that Liverpool have made proper progress this season. However optimistic you are, It’s impossible to argue that we have come nowhere near this level of progress – or that Liverpool fans have more reason to believe than we do, at this moment in time. You talk about a jigsaw – well Rogers seems pretty much to have finished his jigsaw, while the truth is that Wenger has had years to make his jigsaw work, and has failed to do so. Again – I am not commenting on the future. I am looking at the now.

Finally, Ozil. Please do not get me wrong. I have not passed final judgment on this player - and I cannot therefore be accused of calling him a flop in any terminal sense. What I am commenting on is his performance this season. And for such a feted player, this season has simply not been a success. I am worried, with good reason, about his disappearance in most of the big games we have played this season. I am worried by what we have seen about his mentality, and I am worried about whether, given the other players that Wenger has built his team around – particularly the preponderance of playmakers Ozil was the right player to spend that kind of money on. You have obviously seen him in action for RM and I imagine you are basing your view on him on that. It is legitimate, and not reactionary for me to ask whether he is a player that thrives with a team full of world class players around him, where the pressure is not on him, rather than being a player who can step up to be the main man in our team. Whether he will come good or not is pure speculation I’m afraid. I have never argued about whether or not he should be given time to see what happens.

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Shittin' hell :lol:

A lot of what you say has merit. There are a few things I would take umbrage with, but I just can't bring myself to go into detail or argue on....sorry, you deserve more, but if I type more, you'll come back with more, and then we'll end up somewhere near where we started with no conclusion.

Sometimes we just have to see football as a game of 22 players chasing a ball round, trying to kick it in a net.

We don't do that as well as we should. But we're doing it better than we did, in some respects, than last year, and I can live with that for now.

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Originally Posted by IBK

:gp: And it deserves a proper response.

Firstly, I am neither judging the team 'when convenient', nor am I reacting to our situation at this given time. While as every fan should, I can be emotional after a good or bad result, the whole purpose of going into greater detail about why I am, with some justification, yet to believe was to show that my position is not merely a reaction to recent poor results.

The basic issue that seems to be up for debate here is whether we have made substantial progress this year as a team. I say substantial, because it is self-evident that we have improved in defence as a unit - in large part because, like Liverpool up front we have stability and players - particularly in the CB positions, who compliment each other. This has not happened for years. Also, our points total was also higher than last season, last time I looked. Noone can deny that in these 2 areas there has been an improvement.

But firstly, I would argue that an 'improvement' in these areas has not, as yet, seen any step-change in our Arsenal's effectiveness as a competitive team. Put another way - we need more than simply cutting out our previous errors to make real forward progress. I accept that those posters more optimistic (or maybe more wishful thinkers) than I am may see where we are as the basis of real improvement going forwards - and I am not debating that separate issue here. I am trying to take an objective approach as to what has really changed this season. And as I have explained, other than better defensive stability I see little, if anything, to demonstrate that any of the fundamental issues that have hampered Wenger's teams of the past few years have been resolved, and nothing to suggest that we are more capable of besting the strongest teams in the league than we have been previously.

Secondly, like it or not we are in a league - and any improvement will, and should always be judged against those teams that we need to leapfrog to show tangible progress in this regard. Without yet going into specifics, we are a team that has finished 4th in the league since 2006, with the exception of 2 seasons where we finished 3rd. This season the smart money says we'll finish 4th again, or 3rd if we are lucky. Looking at the facts - what has changed? I accept that we are up against financial doping - but a few points arise here. Firstly, and as has rightly been pointed out, the fact that We have two billionaire funded clubs makes no difference whatsoever to many of the issues that I have identified with our team. Secondly, the whole stadium move was intended for us to be able to compete against the then huge financial muscle of Manure. Are we honestly saying that because 2 more financial giants have arrived on the scene then we should simply accept that we can't compete and regard 4th place as the highest place that a club with our resources can finish? Because this is the inevitable conclusion to be reached by your statement that we cannot be judged against the likes of the Chavs and Citeh. Ferguson was not cowed by having far fewer resources than these clubs - and you can bet that neither would Danny Fizman or David Dein. We did not used to be so defeatist when we beat Manure to the league title, despite our tiny ground and having a fraction of the resources and marketing income.

Another point that is rarely mentioned when considering the ‘opposition’ is the advantages that we have enjoyed, relative to them. In massive contrast to both the Chavs and Citeh, we have had the stability of a manager with huge experience of the EPL and an absolutely guaranteed position – no pressure from a capricious owner and absolute control over what happens on and off the pitch. That alone serves to balance out, in part some of the financial advantages enjoyed by others. Yet through all the turmoil at these other 2 clubs, it seems to have made no tangible difference. We are most likely set to attain our usual league position despite the obvious setbacks that have been suffered by 2 other managers in trying to settle on their best teams and deal with the legacies left to them by others – not to mention Manure falling off a cliff. When you look at how Benitez and Mancini fared last season, it’s difficult to argue that we should never look beyond just money.

I have to say that while it may be logical to make excuses based on the finances of the competition, it is also defeatist - and in danger of becoming a permanent psychological limiter on the ambitions of our club and its supporters. Indeed - it seems to have fundamentally altered the mindset of our once winning manager, and while I am not totally convinced, I do have some sympathy with those that argue that Wenger's greatest crime is brainwashing Gooners into believing that finishing fourth is a trophy. The reality is that finishing fourth is no more, and no less from a financial point of view than a club of our size and resources should be doing - and certainly not a step change. To answer your question – this is why I look up, rather than down in considering our progress. Why should Spurs be relevant when with 1 exception that have never finished top 4 in the EPL? Why should Manure be relevant when they have imploded so spectacularly this season? What achievement is treading water in the league – no matter whether the composition of those finishing above us has at the end of the season may have changed slightly?

As for Liverpool – I accept what you are saying about the advantages, and perhaps the luck that they have enjoyed this season. But that ignores some fundamentals that I am afraid reflect badly on our own team by comparison. Firstly, Rogers has transformed several of his players – Sterling; Sturridge; Coutinho; Henderson – not to mention changing Gerard’s role out of all recognition to how they were before. Wenger has succeeded in the same spectacular way with just 1 player this season, and he has been injured for a large part of it. You talk about Liverpool’s good fortune with their forwards. As I’ve said, we have had similar luck with our defenders. Yet Liverpool are undoubtedly on an upwards trajectory – and we all know how important confidence and belief are in football. We have, and continued to stutter as we always do – and that is the reason why Liverpool are flavor of the month and the jury has always been out on our team and continues to be so – no matter how long we topped the league for. Liverpool’s team is balanced. Ours is not. Liverpool consistently overwhelm teams going forwards. We rarely do. Liverpool are dynamic. We are turgid. Most importantly, there is no doubt whatsoever that Liverpool have made proper progress this season. However optimistic you are, It’s impossible to argue that we have come nowhere near this level of progress – or that Liverpool fans have more reason to believe than we do, at this moment in time. You talk about a jigsaw – well Rogers seems pretty much to have finished his jigsaw, while the truth is that Wenger has had years to make his jigsaw work, and has failed to do so. Again – I am not commenting on the future. I am looking at the now.

Finally, Ozil. Please do not get me wrong. I have not passed final judgment on this player - and I cannot therefore be accused of calling him a flop in any terminal sense. What I am commenting on is his performance this season. And for such a feted player, this season has simply not been a success. I am worried, with good reason, about his disappearance in most of the big games we have played this season. I am worried by what we have seen about his mentality, and I am worried about whether, given the other players that Wenger has built his team around – particularly the preponderance of playmakers Ozil was the right player to spend that kind of money on. You have obviously seen him in action for RM and I imagine you are basing your view on him on that. It is legitimate, and not reactionary for me to ask whether he is a player that thrives with a team full of world class players around him, where the pressure is not on him, rather than being a player who can step up to be the main man in our team. Whether he will come good or not is pure speculation I’m afraid. I have never argued about whether or not he should be given time to see what happens.

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This is a very good post IMO.

I totally agree about our defeatist attitude as well, it's almost like we're beaten before we start, IMO that's a reflection of what the club and manager have done by making people believe 4th place is a trophy and talking about the money in the game all the time.

4th place isn't a trophy and I couldn't care less if other clubs are desperate to be 4th frankly, anyone can see it's only a trophy in terms of finances, coming 4th and making up the numbers in the CL which we seem to do these days isn't a reward.

All you hear nowadays is how we can't compete because of the money, how well we've done given the stadium and the oil billionaires etc etc, we need someone at the club with some vision and ambition, someone who doesn't see us as best of the rest but genuinely believes we should be competing with these teams and winning trophies.

I have to hand it to Wenger and co, they've done a great job of lowering expectations.

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Originally Posted by Özim

This is a very good post IMO.

I totally agree about our defeatist attitude as well, it's almost like we're beaten before we start, IMO that's a reflection of what the club and manager have done by making people believe 4th place is a trophy and talking about the money in the game all the time.

4th place isn't a trophy and I couldn't care less if other clubs are desperate to be 4th frankly, anyone can see it's only a trophy in terms of finances, coming 4th and making up the numbers in the CL which we seem to do these days isn't a reward.

All you hear nowadays is how we can't compete because of the money, how well we've done given the stadium and the oil billionaires etc etc, we need someone at the club with some vision and ambition, someone who doesn't see us as best of the rest but genuinely believes we should be competing with these teams and winning trophies.

I have to hand it to Wenger and co, they've done a great job of lowering expectations.

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You also have to hand it to many posters here who have swallowed the bait line,hook and sinker and in every post talk of nothing else except how City and Chelsea have spoilt every prospect of us making progress, how they have bought every single player that could improve our team. How they tried to buy Ozil from under our noses, surreptitiously goaded Madrid into increasing the price of Higuain, Confused Suarez about the contents of his release clause and made sure Wenger had no choice but to play Almunia for 5 seasons even though he was gash. They are also poisoning Diabys bath water to ensure he cant take us to the next level. Finally they messed with Girouds inner ear to ensure he swings and mostly misses
hate them Chavs and Gypos

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Originally Posted by LDG

Shittin' hell :lol:

A lot of what you say has merit. There are a few things I would take umbrage with, but I just can't bring myself to go into detail or argue on....sorry, you deserve more, but if I type more, you'll come back with more, and then we'll end up somewhere near where we started with no conclusion.

Sometimes we just have to see football as a game of 22 players chasing a ball round, trying to kick it in a net.

We don't do that as well as we should. But we're doing it better than we did, in some respects, than last year, and I can live with that for now.

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Yes - but then a forum would be pretty pointless. I'd honestly like to know what specifically to take issue with. You can list it and I won't reply in more than 2 lines (typed enough today!)

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Originally Posted by Özim

This is a very good post IMO.

I totally agree about our defeatist attitude as well, it's almost like we're beaten before we start, IMO that's a reflection of what the club and manager have done by making people believe 4th place is a trophy and talking about the money in the game all the time.

4th place isn't a trophy and I couldn't care less if other clubs are desperate to be 4th frankly, anyone can see it's only a trophy in terms of finances, coming 4th and making up the numbers in the CL which we seem to do these days isn't a reward.

All you hear nowadays is how we can't compete because of the money, how well we've done given the stadium and the oil billionaires etc etc, we need someone at the club with some vision and ambition, someone who doesn't see us as best of the rest but genuinely believes we should be competing with these teams and winning trophies.

I have to hand it to Wenger and co, they've done a great job of lowering expectations.

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It's a situation unique to Arsenal, and a dilemna. Despite what I think is justified criticism/frustration of Wenger and the club I am still wary of Wenger leaving - and this is the problem. I think that a lot could be done with our players and our resources that isn't being done. A talented tactician as a coach would be a start, for example. As would bringing Dein back into the fold to deal with transfers - in fact I fail to see what possible objection there would now be to the latter - with so much water under the bridge. But for all of Wenger's faults, there are his unique talents too. We have seen what happens at the likes of the Chavs and Manure, even with their billions, even with 'big name' managers when changes are made. there is no guarantee of success. We have seen Manure fall to pieces (relatively speaking) once their talented manager leaves. We have seen our North London rivals haemorrhage managers and still be no nearer to top 4. Even with our financial stability - Arsenal cannot afford to make up for a wrong choice of manager by spunking whatever is needed by way of world class talent.

So yes - we've been doomed to groundhog day under Wenger while being told how lucky we are to be where we are, and it frustrates like hell. But the alternative is still worrying - particularly under an ownership regime that is self-evidently content with relative mediocrity.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IBK

It's a situation unique to Arsenal, and a dilemna. Despite what I think is justified criticism/frustration of Wenger and the club I am still wary of Wenger leaving - and this is the problem. I think that a lot could be done with our players and our resources that isn't being done. A talented tactician as a coach would be a start, for example. As would bringing Dein back into the fold to deal with transfers - in fact I fail to see what possible objection there would now be to the latter - with so much water under the bridge. But for all of Wenger's faults, there are his unique talents too. We have seen what happens at the likes of the Chavs and Manure, even with their billions, even with 'big name' managers when changes are made. there is no guarantee of success. We have seen Manure fall to pieces (relatively speaking) once their talented manager leaves. We have seen our North London rivals haemorrhage managers and still be no nearer to top 4. Even with our financial stability - Arsenal cannot afford to make up for a wrong choice of manager by spunking whatever is needed by way of world class talent.

So yes - we've been doomed to groundhog day under Wenger while being told how lucky we are to be where we are, and it frustrates like hell. But the alternative is still worrying - particularly under an ownership regime that is self-evidently content with relative mediocrity.

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I do agree about Wenger, but that's mainly because he's been in charge so long the whole club is about him and thus it would be difficult for anyone, whoever comes in would need to be a respected coach with a proven track record who would get instant respect from the players IMO.

I just think Wenger is too set in his ways, he doesn't seem to want to deviate from his philosophy, what is clear cut to the outsider doesn't seem to be for him, it's so frustrating to watch, ultimately in my heart of heart I don't believe he's ever going to change and after almost 9 years I think it's time to call it a day and try something else.

I'd be happy for David Dein to come back, I always saw him as a visionary who saw us competing with the top clubs for Europe's biggest trophies and players, I think he saw us competing with the likes of Real and Barca and came across as a football man, I doubt this will ever happen but it would be good for the club if it did IMO.

As for the other clubs I agree, however it's very much about picking the right manager, as mentioned earlier in my post a man who gains instant respect, I'm not convinced some of the managers at the clubs mentioned have ever really had that, Moyes is unproven having never really achieved a great deal, for the right manager a club like our that offers stability is the perfect environment. In the end though the manager would need to bring his own players in as well, inevitably to make a team your own you need to get rid of some of the squad and replace it with players that fit your philosophy.

Moyes inherited a team who punched well above their weight due to the miraculous man management abilities of Ferguson, even though they won the title last season they weren't a great side, Moyes needed to bring several of his own players in to mix it up a bit, I think being stuck with largely the same squad as Ferguson was always going to end in disappointment.

If Moyes brings his own players in, things will be infinitely worse. He started badly by bringing in his own backroom staff.

There are several managers who would bring tactical nous and desire into the team. Klopp, Rijkaard, Benitez. Simeone, all would improve us

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Originally Posted by Globalgunner

If Moyes brings his own players in, things will be infinitely worse. He started badly by bringing in his own backroom staff.

There are several managers who would bring tactical nous and desire into the team. Klopp, Rijkaard, Benitez. Simeone, all would improve us

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:lol: Probably but he's got no hope with Ferguson's players, they're not his players and I don't think they believe in him.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IBK

:gp: And it deserves a proper response.

Firstly, I am neither judging the team 'when convenient', nor am I reacting to our situation at this given time. While as every fan should, I can be emotional after a good or bad result, the whole purpose of going into greater detail about why I am, with some justification, yet to believe was to show that my position is not merely a reaction to recent poor results.

The basic issue that seems to be up for debate here is whether we have made substantial progress this year as a team. I say substantial, because it is self-evident that we have improved in defence as a unit - in large part because, like Liverpool up front we have stability and players - particularly in the CB positions, who compliment each other. This has not happened for years. Also, our points total was also higher than last season, last time I looked. Noone can deny that in these 2 areas there has been an improvement.

But firstly, I would argue that an 'improvement' in these areas has not, as yet, seen any step-change in our Arsenal's effectiveness as a competitive team. Put another way - we need more than simply cutting out our previous errors to make real forward progress. I accept that those posters more optimistic (or maybe more wishful thinkers) than I am may see where we are as the basis of real improvement going forwards - and I am not debating that separate issue here. I am trying to take an objective approach as to what has really changed this season. And as I have explained, other than better defensive stability I see little, if anything, to demonstrate that any of the fundamental issues that have hampered Wenger's teams of the past few years have been resolved, and nothing to suggest that we are more capable of besting the strongest teams in the league than we have been previously.

Secondly, like it or not we are in a league - and any improvement will, and should always be judged against those teams that we need to leapfrog to show tangible progress in this regard. Without yet going into specifics, we are a team that has finished 4th in the league since 2006, with the exception of 2 seasons where we finished 3rd. This season the smart money says we'll finish 4th again, or 3rd if we are lucky. Looking at the facts - what has changed? I accept that we are up against financial doping - but a few points arise here. Firstly, and as has rightly been pointed out, the fact that We have two billionaire funded clubs makes no difference whatsoever to many of the issues that I have identified with our team. Secondly, the whole stadium move was intended for us to be able to compete against the then huge financial muscle of Manure. Are we honestly saying that because 2 more financial giants have arrived on the scene then we should simply accept that we can't compete and regard 4th place as the highest place that a club with our resources can finish? Because this is the inevitable conclusion to be reached by your statement that we cannot be judged against the likes of the Chavs and Citeh. Ferguson was not cowed by having far fewer resources than these clubs - and you can bet that neither would Danny Fizman or David Dein. We did not used to be so defeatist when we beat Manure to the league title, despite our tiny ground and having a fraction of the resources and marketing income.

Another point that is rarely mentioned when considering the ‘opposition’ is the advantages that we have enjoyed, relative to them. In massive contrast to both the Chavs and Citeh, we have had the stability of a manager with huge experience of the EPL and an absolutely guaranteed position – no pressure from a capricious owner and absolute control over what happens on and off the pitch. That alone serves to balance out, in part some of the financial advantages enjoyed by others. Yet through all the turmoil at these other 2 clubs, it seems to have made no tangible difference. We are most likely set to attain our usual league position despite the obvious setbacks that have been suffered by 2 other managers in trying to settle on their best teams and deal with the legacies left to them by others – not to mention Manure falling off a cliff. When you look at how Benitez and Mancini fared last season, it’s difficult to argue that we should never look beyond just money.

I have to say that while it may be logical to make excuses based on the finances of the competition, it is also defeatist - and in danger of becoming a permanent psychological limiter on the ambitions of our club and its supporters. Indeed - it seems to have fundamentally altered the mindset of our once winning manager, and while I am not totally convinced, I do have some sympathy with those that argue that Wenger's greatest crime is brainwashing Gooners into believing that finishing fourth is a trophy. The reality is that finishing fourth is no more, and no less from a financial point of view than a club of our size and resources should be doing - and certainly not a step change. To answer your question – this is why I look up, rather than down in considering our progress. Why should Spurs be relevant when with 1 exception that have never finished top 4 in the EPL? Why should Manure be relevant when they have imploded so spectacularly this season? What achievement is treading water in the league – no matter whether the composition of those finishing above us has at the end of the season may have changed slightly?

As for Liverpool – I accept what you are saying about the advantages, and perhaps the luck that they have enjoyed this season. But that ignores some fundamentals that I am afraid reflect badly on our own team by comparison. Firstly, Rogers has transformed several of his players – Sterling; Sturridge; Coutinho; Henderson – not to mention changing Gerard’s role out of all recognition to how they were before. Wenger has succeeded in the same spectacular way with just 1 player this season, and he has been injured for a large part of it. You talk about Liverpool’s good fortune with their forwards. As I’ve said, we have had similar luck with our defenders. Yet Liverpool are undoubtedly on an upwards trajectory – and we all know how important confidence and belief are in football. We have, and continued to stutter as we always do – and that is the reason why Liverpool are flavor of the month and the jury has always been out on our team and continues to be so – no matter how long we topped the league for. Liverpool’s team is balanced. Ours is not. Liverpool consistently overwhelm teams going forwards. We rarely do. Liverpool are dynamic. We are turgid. Most importantly, there is no doubt whatsoever that Liverpool have made proper progress this season. However optimistic you are, It’s impossible to argue that we have come nowhere near this level of progress – or that Liverpool fans have more reason to believe than we do, at this moment in time. You talk about a jigsaw – well Rogers seems pretty much to have finished his jigsaw, while the truth is that Wenger has had years to make his jigsaw work, and has failed to do so. Again – I am not commenting on the future. I am looking at the now.

Finally, Ozil. Please do not get me wrong. I have not passed final judgment on this player - and I cannot therefore be accused of calling him a flop in any terminal sense. What I am commenting on is his performance this season. And for such a feted player, this season has simply not been a success. I am worried, with good reason, about his disappearance in most of the big games we have played this season. I am worried by what we have seen about his mentality, and I am worried about whether, given the other players that Wenger has built his team around – particularly the preponderance of playmakers Ozil was the right player to spend that kind of money on. You have obviously seen him in action for RM and I imagine you are basing your view on him on that. It is legitimate, and not reactionary for me to ask whether he is a player that thrives with a team full of world class players around him, where the pressure is not on him, rather than being a player who can step up to be the main man in our team. Whether he will come good or not is pure speculation I’m afraid. I have never argued about whether or not he should be given time to see what happens.

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That is a top post my friend.Sums everything up completely

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Originally Posted by Özim

I do agree about Wenger, but that's mainly because he's been in charge so long the whole club is about him and thus it would be difficult for anyone, whoever comes in would need to be a respected coach with a proven track record who would get instant respect from the players IMO.

I just think Wenger is too set in his ways, he doesn't seem to want to deviate from his philosophy, what is clear cut to the outsider doesn't seem to be for him, it's so frustrating to watch, ultimately in my heart of heart I don't believe he's ever going to change and after almost 9 years I think it's time to call it a day and try something else.

I'd be happy for David Dein to come back, I always saw him as a visionary who saw us competing with the top clubs for Europe's biggest trophies and players, I think he saw us competing with the likes of Real and Barca and came across as a football man, I doubt this will ever happen but it would be good for the club if it did IMO.

As for the other clubs I agree, however it's very much about picking the right manager, as mentioned earlier in my post a man who gains instant respect, I'm not convinced some of the managers at the clubs mentioned have ever really had that, Moyes is unproven having never really achieved a great deal, for the right manager a club like our that offers stability is the perfect environment. In the end though the manager would need to bring his own players in as well, inevitably to make a team your own you need to get rid of some of the squad and replace it with players that fit your philosophy.

Moyes inherited a team who punched well above their weight due to the miraculous man management abilities of Ferguson, even though they won the title last season they weren't a great side, Moyes needed to bring several of his own players in to mix it up a bit, I think being stuck with largely the same squad as Ferguson was always going to end in disappointment.

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Aye - the problem is indeed whether Wenger - particularly at his age and with his stubborn philosophy - can achieve the fundamental change that is needed. Your observation about Wenger is absolutely spot on - and has been magnified even more by having a majority shareholding whose very investment strategy is dependent upon Wenger being at the helm. Because while Wenger has, frankly, failed in the true football sense for the past decade - he is an investor's wet dream - and an almost unprecedented salesman of the future. There will always be jam tomorrow, even though there's none today, as a certain poster used to say!

Optimists like LDG feel that Ozil is the glue that will suddenly make his methods and his team reach their true potential. I am much more circumspect. I worry whether there is really a proper plan, or whether Ozil was a vanity purchase and bought simply because he is a prime exponent of the type of footballer that Wenger most admires. We will see - but there have been so many false dawns over the past few years that I feel the Wenger doubters can hardly be criticised. What is most likely finally to kill of the waverers like me, however, is sheer fatigue with a situation that never seems to really change.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IBK

Aye - the problem is indeed whether Wenger - particularly at his age and with his stubborn philosophy - can achieve the fundamental change that is needed. Your observation about Wenger is absolutely spot on - and has been magnified even more by having a majority shareholding whose very investment strategy is dependent upon Wenger being at the helm. Because while Wenger has, frankly, failed in the true football sense for the past decade - he is an investor's wet dream - and an almost unprecedented salesman of the future. There will always be jam tomorrow, even though there's none today, as a certain poster used to say!

Optimists like LDG feel that Ozil is the glue that will suddenly make his methods and his team reach their true potential. I am much more circumspect. I worry whether there is really a proper plan, or whether Ozil was a vanity purchase and bought simply because he is a prime exponent of the type of footballer that Wenger most admires. We will see - but there have been so many false dawns over the past few years that I feel the Wenger doubters can hardly be criticised. What is most likely finally to kill of the waverers like me, however, is sheer fatigue with a situation that never seems to really change.

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Eh? Where have I said that? :blink:

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Originally Posted by LDG

Eh? Where have I said that? :blink:

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Soz - just re-read your post. You were talking about a star striker, not Ozil...:good:

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Originally Posted by IBK

Soz - just re-read your post. You were talking about a star striker, not Ozil...:good:

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:good:

With a pinch of salt too :d

It's difficult to be certain, quite obviously, and I have no idea what Wenger's plans are for a striker (he does seem to like his big lads at the moment).

What I was trying to get at, is that in buying someone more Suarez-like, with movement and pace, it opens the team up. Imagine if you will, "Suarez" in the middle, Walcott out wide, with Ozil utilising that movement and speed.

But it's not just him that will benefit (IMO). Imagine Liverpool without Suarez (all season...not just a few games for biting someone). He opens the door for everyone else, does he not? Who's to say Wilshere doesn't suddenly have someone to aim at. And wouldn't it be nice that someone is running in behind for a change, rather than passing it sideways accross two banks of four?

And as far as being "optimistic" goes....well, I'm not sure I'd call myself a die-hard optimist. I just try and be rational, and give benefit of the doubt where I can. I'd rather go to a football match hoping (sometimes expecting) a win, than start laying into it before.

Like I said. Lots of your points are very valid. There are issues that need to be addressed. But we're in an age where everything is analysed to the nth degree, rather than just seeing an obvious improvement to date, with some potential, and hope to come :shrug:

If we had a player like Suarez, a playmaker like Ozil wouldn’t be essential. Suarez doesn’t have anyone playing behind him as talented as Ozil but he plays to his full potential. I thought Ozil would help get better performances out of the other players. I get why IBK says he’s looking like a luxury player and a vanity purchase.

It’s early days but I don’t like the idea that we need to surround him with another 2/3 players to get more out of him. I look around at other players in our squad and their not so heavily dependent on others to flourish. Ramsey morphed into a beast and doesn’t need anyone in that squad to push him. He’s not even as talented as Ozil technically. Cesc had defensive limitations but he didn’t need anyone else around him to spray passes around. He made Adebayor look really good and I was hoping Ozil could do the same for Giroud and few other players around him. The criticism and scrutiny on him has been heavy but now it’s down to him to react. I’m hoping we see a beast next year like we’ve seen with Ramsey.

I guess we;ll have to wait until we has a full pre season with the club and starts from scratch like everyone else.

However, he has been below par and looks like he's finding the pace and physical apsect of things a bit too much.

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Originally Posted by LDG

:good:

With a pinch of salt too :d

It's difficult to be certain, quite obviously, and I have no idea what Wenger's plans are for a striker (he does seem to like his big lads at the moment).

What I was trying to get at, is that in buying someone more Suarez-like, with movement and pace, it opens the team up. Imagine if you will, "Suarez" in the middle, Walcott out wide, with Ozil utilising that movement and speed.

But it's not just him that will benefit (IMO). Imagine Liverpool without Suarez (all season...not just a few games for biting someone). He opens the door for everyone else, does he not? Who's to say Wilshere doesn't suddenly have someone to aim at. And wouldn't it be nice that someone is running in behind for a change, rather than passing it sideways accross two banks of four?

And as far as being "optimistic" goes....well, I'm not sure I'd call myself a die-hard optimist. I just try and be rational, and give benefit of the doubt where I can. I'd rather go to a football match hoping (sometimes expecting) a win, than start laying into it before.

Like I said. Lots of your points are very valid. There are issues that need to be addressed. But we're in an age where everything is analysed to the nth degree, rather than just seeing an obvious improvement to date, with some potential, and hope to come :shrug:

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I take all that - and agree strongly that a Suarez type forward with his movement might open us up - because that what we are bereft of on a consistent basis - in and around the opposition area.

Where I take a teensy bit of issue is the implication that those of us who are struggling to give the team the benefit of the doubt are irrational, whereas those that are willing to do so are rational. You probably didn;t mean it like that - and I would agree that the more reactionary posters on here could be considered irrational. But we have seen so many false dawns with this team, and been invited to invest in the future for so long. I guess it comes down to whether overall one sees a real difference in that this season. You do, and I don't (see any step change) - but on the facts as we see them each opinion is as justified (and rational) as the other.

As for games. I also go hoping for a win. Every time. And no Gooner would be more delighted than I am if we confound expectations and blitz our daunting coming run. If we do - THAT will be a step change!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

If we had a player like Suarez, a playmaker like Ozil wouldn’t be essential. Suarez doesn’t have anyone playing behind him as talented as Ozil but he plays to his full potential. I thought Ozil would help get better performances out of the other players. I get why IBK says he’s looking like a luxury player and a vanity purchase.

It’s early days but I don’t like the idea that we need to surround him with another 2/3 players to get more out of him. I look around at other players in our squad and their not so heavily dependent on others to flourish. Ramsey morphed into a beast and doesn’t need anyone in that squad to push him. He’s not even as talented as Ozil technically. Cesc had defensive limitations but he didn’t need anyone else around him to spray passes around. He made Adebayor look really good and I was hoping Ozil could do the same for Giroud and few other players around him. The criticism and scrutiny on him has been heavy but now it’s down to him to react. I’m hoping we see a beast next year like we’ve seen with Ramsey.

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Second that. :good:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

If we had a player like Suarez, a playmaker like Ozil wouldn’t be essential. Suarez doesn’t have anyone playing behind him as talented as Ozil but he plays to his full potential. I thought Ozil would help get better performances out of the other players. I get why IBK says he’s looking like a luxury player and a vanity purchase.

It’s early days but I don’t like the idea that we need to surround him with another 2/3 players to get more out of him. I look around at other players in our squad and their not so heavily dependent on others to flourish. Ramsey morphed into a beast and doesn’t need anyone in that squad to push him. He’s not even as talented as Ozil technically. Cesc had defensive limitations but he didn’t need anyone else around him to spray passes around. He made Adebayor look really good and I was hoping Ozil could do the same for Giroud and few other players around him. The criticism and scrutiny on him has been heavy but now it’s down to him to react. I’m hoping we see a beast next year like we’ve seen with Ramsey.

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Yep

:gp:

Seems like Joel Campbell scored another scorcher in midweek, so we have Suarez's ready made replacement coming in next season. A new signing! :trophy:

Squeaky bum time. :popcorn:

Not sure there can be anyone left who thinks we've got no chance, all about whether we can be the best of a very good (if expensively purchased) bunch. Not been this excited since 2008, and we all know how well that went :dance:

We'll be ahead of Chelsea if we win our next two. :pray:

We'll need to win at least one of the game with Chelsea and City realistically but I don't think we will.

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Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

We'll need to win at least one of the game with Chelsea and City realistically but I don't think we will.

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You think we'll win both don't you, you sly dawg you...

A great result against Spurs today, and a decent cup performance last week. But we were pretty hopeless against Spurs - 1st 25 mins aside - and logic says that we won't scrap the same result against Chelsea and Citeh. If we do - great. But like it always seems to be with Arsenal - the jury's still out.

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Originally Posted by IBK

A great result against Spurs today, and a decent cup performance last week. But we were pretty hopeless against Spurs - 1st 25 mins aside - and logic says that we won't scrap the same result against Chelsea and Citeh. If we do - great. But like it always seems to be with Arsenal - the jury's still out.

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Pretty much this, really great result today which has gone a long way towards cementing our top 4 place.

If personally think we need to win both the Chelsea and Citeh games if we stand any chance of winning PL. We also have the small matter of hoping Liverpool choke, I don't know about you guys but I have strong feeling Liverpool are going to do it this year, yep I fancy them for the title. They have Citeh and Chelsea both to come to Anfield and I can see them beating both of them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by selassie

Pretty much this, really great result today which has gone a long way towards cementing our top 4 place.

If personally think we need to win both the Chelsea and Citeh games if we stand any chance of winning PL. We also have the small matter of hoping Liverpool choke, I don't know about you guys but I have strong feeling Liverpool are going to do it this year, yep I fancy them for the title. They have Citeh and Chelsea both to come to Anfield and I can see them beating both of them.

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All that can be said with any certainty is that we need to beat at least one of the scum clubs, or at least avoid defeat in both games so that they don't pull away from us. There are far too many six-pointers between now and the end of the season to say that any team has a significant advantage, and the fact that they're shared between four teams makes it impossible to make any blanket statements about what we need to happen.

Singling out Liverpool at this point is assuming what can't possibly be known.

As we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns; that is to say, there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns – there are things we do not know we don't know.

I can't take us seriously as title contenders, we haven't got results in enough of the big games. In seasons where we have won it we've tended to do well in those games. If we win at Chelsea then I'll believe we have some chance but I doubt we will.

A win at Chelsea would definitely raise some eyebrows. It's a huge game and we could really change the perception of us as being the weakest challengers.

It's a huge ask to win there though, Mourinho has never lost a home game with them and always seems to have the beating of his rivals.

I'd splaff my pants if we somehow got the 3 points.

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Originally Posted by Letters

I can't take us seriously as title contenders, we haven't got results in enough of the big games. In seasons where we have won it we've tended to do well in those games. If we win at Chelsea then I'll believe we have some chance but I doubt we will.

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Spurs: P2, W2, D0 L0
United: P2, W0 D1, L1
Liverpool: P2 W1, D0, L1
Chelsea: P1, W0, D1, L0
City: P1, W0, D0, L1

Overall: P8, W3, D2, L3

We've won as many as we've lost, though granted not against title rivals. Not as good as it could've been, of course, but not a disaster. Losing to both scum clubs would obviously be disastrous, but from practically speaking, I don't think we need to beat both of them to stay in contention. It's as much, if not more, about taking points off our rivals as it is getting them ourselves. I reckon 2 points from those two games would be better than 3.