When do we start to believe ?

[LDG]

And it deserves a proper response.

Firstly, I am neither judging the team 'when convenient', nor am I reacting to our situation at this given time. While as every fan should, I can be emotional after a good or bad result, the whole purpose of going into greater detail about why I am, with some justification, yet to believe was to show that my position is not merely a reaction to recent poor results.

The basic issue that seems to be up for debate here is whether we have made substantial progress this year as a team. I say substantial, because it is self-evident that we have improved in defence as a unit - in large part because, like Liverpool up front we have stability and players - particularly in the CB positions, who compliment each other. This has not happened for years. Also, our points total was also higher than last season, last time I looked. Noone can deny that in these 2 areas there has been an improvement.

But firstly, I would argue that an 'improvement' in these areas has not, as yet, seen any step-change in our Arsenal's effectiveness as a competitive team. Put another way - we need more than simply cutting out our previous errors to make real forward progress. I accept that those posters more optimistic (or maybe more wishful thinkers) than I am may see where we are as the basis of real improvement going forwards - and I am not debating that separate issue here. I am trying to take an objective approach as to what has really changed this season. And as I have explained, other than better defensive stability I see little, if anything, to demonstrate that any of the fundamental issues that have hampered Wenger's teams of the past few years have been resolved, and nothing to suggest that we are more capable of besting the strongest teams in the league than we have been previously.

Secondly, like it or not we are in a league - and any improvement will, and should always be judged against those teams that we need to leapfrog to show tangible progress in this regard. Without yet going into specifics, we are a team that has finished 4th in the league since 2006, with the exception of 2 seasons where we finished 3rd. This season the smart money says we'll finish 4th again, or 3rd if we are lucky. Looking at the facts - what has changed? I accept that we are up against financial doping - but a few points arise here. Firstly, and as has rightly been pointed out, the fact that We have two billionaire funded clubs makes no difference whatsoever to many of the issues that I have identified with our team. Secondly, the whole stadium move was intended for us to be able to compete against the then huge financial muscle of Manure. Are we honestly saying that because 2 more financial giants have arrived on the scene then we should simply accept that we can't compete and regard 4th place as the highest place that a club with our resources can finish? Because this is the inevitable conclusion to be reached by your statement that we cannot be judged against the likes of the Chavs and Citeh. Ferguson was not cowed by having far fewer resources than these clubs - and you can bet that neither would Danny Fizman or David Dein. We did not used to be so defeatist when we beat Manure to the league title, despite our tiny ground and having a fraction of the resources and marketing income.

Another point that is rarely mentioned when considering the ‘opposition’ is the advantages that we have enjoyed, relative to them. In massive contrast to both the Chavs and Citeh, we have had the stability of a manager with huge experience of the EPL and an absolutely guaranteed position – no pressure from a capricious owner and absolute control over what happens on and off the pitch. That alone serves to balance out, in part some of the financial advantages enjoyed by others. Yet through all the turmoil at these other 2 clubs, it seems to have made no tangible difference. We are most likely set to attain our usual league position despite the obvious setbacks that have been suffered by 2 other managers in trying to settle on their best teams and deal with the legacies left to them by others – not to mention Manure falling off a cliff. When you look at how Benitez and Mancini fared last season, it’s difficult to argue that we should never look beyond just money.

I have to say that while it may be logical to make excuses based on the finances of the competition, it is also defeatist - and in danger of becoming a permanent psychological limiter on the ambitions of our club and its supporters. Indeed - it seems to have fundamentally altered the mindset of our once winning manager, and while I am not totally convinced, I do have some sympathy with those that argue that Wenger's greatest crime is brainwashing Gooners into believing that finishing fourth is a trophy. The reality is that finishing fourth is no more, and no less from a financial point of view than a club of our size and resources should be doing - and certainly not a step change. To answer your question – this is why I look up, rather than down in considering our progress. Why should Spurs be relevant when with 1 exception that have never finished top 4 in the EPL? Why should Manure be relevant when they have imploded so spectacularly this season? What achievement is treading water in the league – no matter whether the composition of those finishing above us has at the end of the season may have changed slightly?

As for Liverpool – I accept what you are saying about the advantages, and perhaps the luck that they have enjoyed this season. But that ignores some fundamentals that I am afraid reflect badly on our own team by comparison. Firstly, Rogers has transformed several of his players – Sterling; Sturridge; Coutinho; Henderson – not to mention changing Gerard’s role out of all recognition to how they were before. Wenger has succeeded in the same spectacular way with just 1 player this season, and he has been injured for a large part of it. You talk about Liverpool’s good fortune with their forwards. As I’ve said, we have had similar luck with our defenders. Yet Liverpool are undoubtedly on an upwards trajectory – and we all know how important confidence and belief are in football. We have, and continued to stutter as we always do – and that is the reason why Liverpool are flavor of the month and the jury has always been out on our team and continues to be so – no matter how long we topped the league for. Liverpool’s team is balanced. Ours is not. Liverpool consistently overwhelm teams going forwards. We rarely do. Liverpool are dynamic. We are turgid. Most importantly, there is no doubt whatsoever that Liverpool have made proper progress this season. However optimistic you are, It’s impossible to argue that we have come nowhere near this level of progress – or that Liverpool fans have more reason to believe than we do, at this moment in time. You talk about a jigsaw – well Rogers seems pretty much to have finished his jigsaw, while the truth is that Wenger has had years to make his jigsaw work, and has failed to do so. Again – I am not commenting on the future. I am looking at the now.

Finally, Ozil. Please do not get me wrong. I have not passed final judgment on this player - and I cannot therefore be accused of calling him a flop in any terminal sense. What I am commenting on is his performance this season. And for such a feted player, this season has simply not been a success. I am worried, with good reason, about his disappearance in most of the big games we have played this season. I am worried by what we have seen about his mentality, and I am worried about whether, given the other players that Wenger has built his team around – particularly the preponderance of playmakers Ozil was the right player to spend that kind of money on. You have obviously seen him in action for RM and I imagine you are basing your view on him on that. It is legitimate, and not reactionary for me to ask whether he is a player that thrives with a team full of world class players around him, where the pressure is not on him, rather than being a player who can step up to be the main man in our team. Whether he will come good or not is pure speculation I’m afraid. I have never argued about whether or not he should be given time to see what happens.

Shittin' hell

A lot of what you say has merit. There are a few things I would take umbrage with, but I just can't bring myself to go into detail or argue on....sorry, you deserve more, but if I type more, you'll come back with more, and then we'll end up somewhere near where we started with no conclusion.

Sometimes we just have to see football as a game of 22 players chasing a ball round, trying to kick it in a net.

We don't do that as well as we should. But we're doing it better than we did, in some respects, than last year, and I can live with that for now.

[Özim]

And it deserves a proper response.

Firstly, I am neither judging the team 'when convenient', nor am I reacting to our situation at this given time. While as every fan should, I can be emotional after a good or bad result, the whole purpose of going into greater detail about why I am, with some justification, yet to believe was to show that my position is not merely a reaction to recent poor results.

The basic issue that seems to be up for debate here is whether we have made substantial progress this year as a team. I say substantial, because it is self-evident that we have improved in defence as a unit - in large part because, like Liverpool up front we have stability and players - particularly in the CB positions, who compliment each other. This has not happened for years. Also, our points total was also higher than last season, last time I looked. Noone can deny that in these 2 areas there has been an improvement.

But firstly, I would argue that an 'improvement' in these areas has not, as yet, seen any step-change in our Arsenal's effectiveness as a competitive team. Put another way - we need more than simply cutting out our previous errors to make real forward progress. I accept that those posters more optimistic (or maybe more wishful thinkers) than I am may see where we are as the basis of real improvement going forwards - and I am not debating that separate issue here. I am trying to take an objective approach as to what has really changed this season. And as I have explained, other than better defensive stability I see little, if anything, to demonstrate that any of the fundamental issues that have hampered Wenger's teams of the past few years have been resolved, and nothing to suggest that we are more capable of besting the strongest teams in the league than we have been previously.

Secondly, like it or not we are in a league - and any improvement will, and should always be judged against those teams that we need to leapfrog to show tangible progress in this regard. Without yet going into specifics, we are a team that has finished 4th in the league since 2006, with the exception of 2 seasons where we finished 3rd. This season the smart money says we'll finish 4th again, or 3rd if we are lucky. Looking at the facts - what has changed? I accept that we are up against financial doping - but a few points arise here. Firstly, and as has rightly been pointed out, the fact that We have two billionaire funded clubs makes no difference whatsoever to many of the issues that I have identified with our team. Secondly, the whole stadium move was intended for us to be able to compete against the then huge financial muscle of Manure. Are we honestly saying that because 2 more financial giants have arrived on the scene then we should simply accept that we can't compete and regard 4th place as the highest place that a club with our resources can finish? Because this is the inevitable conclusion to be reached by your statement that we cannot be judged against the likes of the Chavs and Citeh. Ferguson was not cowed by having far fewer resources than these clubs - and you can bet that neither would Danny Fizman or David Dein. We did not used to be so defeatist when we beat Manure to the league title, despite our tiny ground and having a fraction of the resources and marketing income.

Another point that is rarely mentioned when considering the ‘opposition’ is the advantages that we have enjoyed, relative to them. In massive contrast to both the Chavs and Citeh, we have had the stability of a manager with huge experience of the EPL and an absolutely guaranteed position – no pressure from a capricious owner and absolute control over what happens on and off the pitch. That alone serves to balance out, in part some of the financial advantages enjoyed by others. Yet through all the turmoil at these other 2 clubs, it seems to have made no tangible difference. We are most likely set to attain our usual league position despite the obvious setbacks that have been suffered by 2 other managers in trying to settle on their best teams and deal with the legacies left to them by others – not to mention Manure falling off a cliff. When you look at how Benitez and Mancini fared last season, it’s difficult to argue that we should never look beyond just money.

I have to say that while it may be logical to make excuses based on the finances of the competition, it is also defeatist - and in danger of becoming a permanent psychological limiter on the ambitions of our club and its supporters. Indeed - it seems to have fundamentally altered the mindset of our once winning manager, and while I am not totally convinced, I do have some sympathy with those that argue that Wenger's greatest crime is brainwashing Gooners into believing that finishing fourth is a trophy. The reality is that finishing fourth is no more, and no less from a financial point of view than a club of our size and resources should be doing - and certainly not a step change. To answer your question – this is why I look up, rather than down in considering our progress. Why should Spurs be relevant when with 1 exception that have never finished top 4 in the EPL? Why should Manure be relevant when they have imploded so spectacularly this season? What achievement is treading water in the league – no matter whether the composition of those finishing above us has at the end of the season may have changed slightly?

As for Liverpool – I accept what you are saying about the advantages, and perhaps the luck that they have enjoyed this season. But that ignores some fundamentals that I am afraid reflect badly on our own team by comparison. Firstly, Rogers has transformed several of his players – Sterling; Sturridge; Coutinho; Henderson – not to mention changing Gerard’s role out of all recognition to how they were before. Wenger has succeeded in the same spectacular way with just 1 player this season, and he has been injured for a large part of it. You talk about Liverpool’s good fortune with their forwards. As I’ve said, we have had similar luck with our defenders. Yet Liverpool are undoubtedly on an upwards trajectory – and we all know how important confidence and belief are in football. We have, and continued to stutter as we always do – and that is the reason why Liverpool are flavor of the month and the jury has always been out on our team and continues to be so – no matter how long we topped the league for. Liverpool’s team is balanced. Ours is not. Liverpool consistently overwhelm teams going forwards. We rarely do. Liverpool are dynamic. We are turgid. Most importantly, there is no doubt whatsoever that Liverpool have made proper progress this season. However optimistic you are, It’s impossible to argue that we have come nowhere near this level of progress – or that Liverpool fans have more reason to believe than we do, at this moment in time. You talk about a jigsaw – well Rogers seems pretty much to have finished his jigsaw, while the truth is that Wenger has had years to make his jigsaw work, and has failed to do so. Again – I am not commenting on the future. I am looking at the now.

Finally, Ozil. Please do not get me wrong. I have not passed final judgment on this player - and I cannot therefore be accused of calling him a flop in any terminal sense. What I am commenting on is his performance this season. And for such a feted player, this season has simply not been a success. I am worried, with good reason, about his disappearance in most of the big games we have played this season. I am worried by what we have seen about his mentality, and I am worried about whether, given the other players that Wenger has built his team around – particularly the preponderance of playmakers Ozil was the right player to spend that kind of money on. You have obviously seen him in action for RM and I imagine you are basing your view on him on that. It is legitimate, and not reactionary for me to ask whether he is a player that thrives with a team full of world class players around him, where the pressure is not on him, rather than being a player who can step up to be the main man in our team. Whether he will come good or not is pure speculation I’m afraid. I have never argued about whether or not he should be given time to see what happens.

This is a very good post IMO.

I totally agree about our defeatist attitude as well, it's almost like we're beaten before we start, IMO that's a reflection of what the club and manager have done by making people believe 4th place is a trophy and talking about the money in the game all the time.

4th place isn't a trophy and I couldn't care less if other clubs are desperate to be 4th frankly, anyone can see it's only a trophy in terms of finances, coming 4th and making up the numbers in the CL which we seem to do these days isn't a reward.

All you hear nowadays is how we can't compete because of the money, how well we've done given the stadium and the oil billionaires etc etc, we need someone at the club with some vision and ambition, someone who doesn't see us as best of the rest but genuinely believes we should be competing with these teams and winning trophies.

I have to hand it to Wenger and co, they've done a great job of lowering expectations.

[Globalgunner]

This is a very good post IMO.

I totally agree about our defeatist attitude as well, it's almost like we're beaten before we start, IMO that's a reflection of what the club and manager have done by making people believe 4th place is a trophy and talking about the money in the game all the time.

4th place isn't a trophy and I couldn't care less if other clubs are desperate to be 4th frankly, anyone can see it's only a trophy in terms of finances, coming 4th and making up the numbers in the CL which we seem to do these days isn't a reward.

All you hear nowadays is how we can't compete because of the money, how well we've done given the stadium and the oil billionaires etc etc, we need someone at the club with some vision and ambition, someone who doesn't see us as best of the rest but genuinely believes we should be competing with these teams and winning trophies.

I have to hand it to Wenger and co, they've done a great job of lowering expectations.

You also have to hand it to many posters here who have swallowed the bait line,hook and sinker and in every post talk of nothing else except how City and Chelsea have spoilt every prospect of us making progress, how they have bought every single player that could improve our team. How they tried to buy Ozil from under our noses, surreptitiously goaded Madrid into increasing the price of Higuain, Confused Suarez about the contents of his release clause and made sure Wenger had no choice but to play Almunia for 5 seasons even though he was gash. They are also poisoning Diabys bath water to ensure he cant take us to the next level. Finally they messed with Girouds inner ear to ensure he swings and mostly misses
hate them Chavs and Gypos

[IBK]

Shittin' hell

A lot of what you say has merit. There are a few things I would take umbrage with, but I just can't bring myself to go into detail or argue on....sorry, you deserve more, but if I type more, you'll come back with more, and then we'll end up somewhere near where we started with no conclusion.

Sometimes we just have to see football as a game of 22 players chasing a ball round, trying to kick it in a net.

We don't do that as well as we should. But we're doing it better than we did, in some respects, than last year, and I can live with that for now.

Yes - but then a forum would be pretty pointless. I'd honestly like to know what specifically to take issue with. You can list it and I won't reply in more than 2 lines (typed enough today!)

[IBK]

This is a very good post IMO.

I totally agree about our defeatist attitude as well, it's almost like we're beaten before we start, IMO that's a reflection of what the club and manager have done by making people believe 4th place is a trophy and talking about the money in the game all the time.

4th place isn't a trophy and I couldn't care less if other clubs are desperate to be 4th frankly, anyone can see it's only a trophy in terms of finances, coming 4th and making up the numbers in the CL which we seem to do these days isn't a reward.

All you hear nowadays is how we can't compete because of the money, how well we've done given the stadium and the oil billionaires etc etc, we need someone at the club with some vision and ambition, someone who doesn't see us as best of the rest but genuinely believes we should be competing with these teams and winning trophies.

I have to hand it to Wenger and co, they've done a great job of lowering expectations.

It's a situation unique to Arsenal, and a dilemna. Despite what I think is justified criticism/frustration of Wenger and the club I am still wary of Wenger leaving - and this is the problem. I think that a lot could be done with our players and our resources that isn't being done. A talented tactician as a coach would be a start, for example. As would bringing Dein back into the fold to deal with transfers - in fact I fail to see what possible objection there would now be to the latter - with so much water under the bridge. But for all of Wenger's faults, there are his unique talents too. We have seen what happens at the likes of the Chavs and Manure, even with their billions, even with 'big name' managers when changes are made. there is no guarantee of success. We have seen Manure fall to pieces (relatively speaking) once their talented manager leaves. We have seen our North London rivals haemorrhage managers and still be no nearer to top 4. Even with our financial stability - Arsenal cannot afford to make up for a wrong choice of manager by spunking whatever is needed by way of world class talent.

So yes - we've been doomed to groundhog day under Wenger while being told how lucky we are to be where we are, and it frustrates like hell. But the alternative is still worrying - particularly under an ownership regime that is self-evidently content with relative mediocrity.

[Özim]

It's a situation unique to Arsenal, and a dilemna. Despite what I think is justified criticism/frustration of Wenger and the club I am still wary of Wenger leaving - and this is the problem. I think that a lot could be done with our players and our resources that isn't being done. A talented tactician as a coach would be a start, for example. As would bringing Dein back into the fold to deal with transfers - in fact I fail to see what possible objection there would now be to the latter - with so much water under the bridge. But for all of Wenger's faults, there are his unique talents too. We have seen what happens at the likes of the Chavs and Manure, even with their billions, even with 'big name' managers when changes are made. there is no guarantee of success. We have seen Manure fall to pieces (relatively speaking) once their talented manager leaves. We have seen our North London rivals haemorrhage managers and still be no nearer to top 4. Even with our financial stability - Arsenal cannot afford to make up for a wrong choice of manager by spunking whatever is needed by way of world class talent.

So yes - we've been doomed to groundhog day under Wenger while being told how lucky we are to be where we are, and it frustrates like hell. But the alternative is still worrying - particularly under an ownership regime that is self-evidently content with relative mediocrity.

I do agree about Wenger, but that's mainly because he's been in charge so long the whole club is about him and thus it would be difficult for anyone, whoever comes in would need to be a respected coach with a proven track record who would get instant respect from the players IMO.

I just think Wenger is too set in his ways, he doesn't seem to want to deviate from his philosophy, what is clear cut to the outsider doesn't seem to be for him, it's so frustrating to watch, ultimately in my heart of heart I don't believe he's ever going to change and after almost 9 years I think it's time to call it a day and try something else.

I'd be happy for David Dein to come back, I always saw him as a visionary who saw us competing with the top clubs for Europe's biggest trophies and players, I think he saw us competing with the likes of Real and Barca and came across as a football man, I doubt this will ever happen but it would be good for the club if it did IMO.

As for the other clubs I agree, however it's very much about picking the right manager, as mentioned earlier in my post a man who gains instant respect, I'm not convinced some of the managers at the clubs mentioned have ever really had that, Moyes is unproven having never really achieved a great deal, for the right manager a club like our that offers stability is the perfect environment. In the end though the manager would need to bring his own players in as well, inevitably to make a team your own you need to get rid of some of the squad and replace it with players that fit your philosophy.

Moyes inherited a team who punched well above their weight due to the miraculous man management abilities of Ferguson, even though they won the title last season they weren't a great side, Moyes needed to bring several of his own players in to mix it up a bit, I think being stuck with largely the same squad as Ferguson was always going to end in disappointment.

[Globalgunner]

If Moyes brings his own players in, things will be infinitely worse. He started badly by bringing in his own backroom staff.

There are several managers who would bring tactical nous and desire into the team. Klopp, Rijkaard, Benitez. Simeone, all would improve us

[Özim]

If Moyes brings his own players in, things will be infinitely worse. He started badly by bringing in his own backroom staff.

There are several managers who would bring tactical nous and desire into the team. Klopp, Rijkaard, Benitez. Simeone, all would improve us

Probably but he's got no hope with Ferguson's players, they're not his players and I don't think they believe in him.

[saintnickle]

And it deserves a proper response.

Firstly, I am neither judging the team 'when convenient', nor am I reacting to our situation at this given time. While as every fan should, I can be emotional after a good or bad result, the whole purpose of going into greater detail about why I am, with some justification, yet to believe was to show that my position is not merely a reaction to recent poor results.

The basic issue that seems to be up for debate here is whether we have made substantial progress this year as a team. I say substantial, because it is self-evident that we have improved in defence as a unit - in large part because, like Liverpool up front we have stability and players - particularly in the CB positions, who compliment each other. This has not happened for years. Also, our points total was also higher than last season, last time I looked. Noone can deny that in these 2 areas there has been an improvement.

But firstly, I would argue that an 'improvement' in these areas has not, as yet, seen any step-change in our Arsenal's effectiveness as a competitive team. Put another way - we need more than simply cutting out our previous errors to make real forward progress. I accept that those posters more optimistic (or maybe more wishful thinkers) than I am may see where we are as the basis of real improvement going forwards - and I am not debating that separate issue here. I am trying to take an objective approach as to what has really changed this season. And as I have explained, other than better defensive stability I see little, if anything, to demonstrate that any of the fundamental issues that have hampered Wenger's teams of the past few years have been resolved, and nothing to suggest that we are more capable of besting the strongest teams in the league than we have been previously.

Secondly, like it or not we are in a league - and any improvement will, and should always be judged against those teams that we need to leapfrog to show tangible progress in this regard. Without yet going into specifics, we are a team that has finished 4th in the league since 2006, with the exception of 2 seasons where we finished 3rd. This season the smart money says we'll finish 4th again, or 3rd if we are lucky. Looking at the facts - what has changed? I accept that we are up against financial doping - but a few points arise here. Firstly, and as has rightly been pointed out, the fact that We have two billionaire funded clubs makes no difference whatsoever to many of the issues that I have identified with our team. Secondly, the whole stadium move was intended for us to be able to compete against the then huge financial muscle of Manure. Are we honestly saying that because 2 more financial giants have arrived on the scene then we should simply accept that we can't compete and regard 4th place as the highest place that a club with our resources can finish? Because this is the inevitable conclusion to be reached by your statement that we cannot be judged against the likes of the Chavs and Citeh. Ferguson was not cowed by having far fewer resources than these clubs - and you can bet that neither would Danny Fizman or David Dein. We did not used to be so defeatist when we beat Manure to the league title, despite our tiny ground and having a fraction of the resources and marketing income.

Another point that is rarely mentioned when considering the ‘opposition’ is the advantages that we have enjoyed, relative to them. In massive contrast to both the Chavs and Citeh, we have had the stability of a manager with huge experience of the EPL and an absolutely guaranteed position – no pressure from a capricious owner and absolute control over what happens on and off the pitch. That alone serves to balance out, in part some of the financial advantages enjoyed by others. Yet through all the turmoil at these other 2 clubs, it seems to have made no tangible difference. We are most likely set to attain our usual league position despite the obvious setbacks that have been suffered by 2 other managers in trying to settle on their best teams and deal with the legacies left to them by others – not to mention Manure falling off a cliff. When you look at how Benitez and Mancini fared last season, it’s difficult to argue that we should never look beyond just money.

I have to say that while it may be logical to make excuses based on the finances of the competition, it is also defeatist - and in danger of becoming a permanent psychological limiter on the ambitions of our club and its supporters. Indeed - it seems to have fundamentally altered the mindset of our once winning manager, and while I am not totally convinced, I do have some sympathy with those that argue that Wenger's greatest crime is brainwashing Gooners into believing that finishing fourth is a trophy. The reality is that finishing fourth is no more, and no less from a financial point of view than a club of our size and resources should be doing - and certainly not a step change. To answer your question – this is why I look up, rather than down in considering our progress. Why should Spurs be relevant when with 1 exception that have never finished top 4 in the EPL? Why should Manure be relevant when they have imploded so spectacularly this season? What achievement is treading water in the league – no matter whether the composition of those finishing above us has at the end of the season may have changed slightly?

As for Liverpool – I accept what you are saying about the advantages, and perhaps the luck that they have enjoyed this season. But that ignores some fundamentals that I am afraid reflect badly on our own team by comparison. Firstly, Rogers has transformed several of his players – Sterling; Sturridge; Coutinho; Henderson – not to mention changing Gerard’s role out of all recognition to how they were before. Wenger has succeeded in the same spectacular way with just 1 player this season, and he has been injured for a large part of it. You talk about Liverpool’s good fortune with their forwards. As I’ve said, we have had similar luck with our defenders. Yet Liverpool are undoubtedly on an upwards trajectory – and we all know how important confidence and belief are in football. We have, and continued to stutter as we always do – and that is the reason why Liverpool are flavor of the month and the jury has always been out on our team and continues to be so – no matter how long we topped the league for. Liverpool’s team is balanced. Ours is not. Liverpool consistently overwhelm teams going forwards. We rarely do. Liverpool are dynamic. We are turgid. Most importantly, there is no doubt whatsoever that Liverpool have made proper progress this season. However optimistic you are, It’s impossible to argue that we have come nowhere near this level of progress – or that Liverpool fans have more reason to believe than we do, at this moment in time. You talk about a jigsaw – well Rogers seems pretty much to have finished his jigsaw, while the truth is that Wenger has had years to make his jigsaw work, and has failed to do so. Again – I am not commenting on the future. I am looking at the now.

Finally, Ozil. Please do not get me wrong. I have not passed final judgment on this player - and I cannot therefore be accused of calling him a flop in any terminal sense. What I am commenting on is his performance this season. And for such a feted player, this season has simply not been a success. I am worried, with good reason, about his disappearance in most of the big games we have played this season. I am worried by what we have seen about his mentality, and I am worried about whether, given the other players that Wenger has built his team around – particularly the preponderance of playmakers Ozil was the right player to spend that kind of money on. You have obviously seen him in action for RM and I imagine you are basing your view on him on that. It is legitimate, and not reactionary for me to ask whether he is a player that thrives with a team full of world class players around him, where the pressure is not on him, rather than being a player who can step up to be the main man in our team. Whether he will come good or not is pure speculation I’m afraid. I have never argued about whether or not he should be given time to see what happens.

That is a top post my friend.Sums everything up completely

[IBK]

I do agree about Wenger, but that's mainly because he's been in charge so long the whole club is about him and thus it would be difficult for anyone, whoever comes in would need to be a respected coach with a proven track record who would get instant respect from the players IMO.

I just think Wenger is too set in his ways, he doesn't seem to want to deviate from his philosophy, what is clear cut to the outsider doesn't seem to be for him, it's so frustrating to watch, ultimately in my heart of heart I don't believe he's ever going to change and after almost 9 years I think it's time to call it a day and try something else.

I'd be happy for David Dein to come back, I always saw him as a visionary who saw us competing with the top clubs for Europe's biggest trophies and players, I think he saw us competing with the likes of Real and Barca and came across as a football man, I doubt this will ever happen but it would be good for the club if it did IMO.

As for the other clubs I agree, however it's very much about picking the right manager, as mentioned earlier in my post a man who gains instant respect, I'm not convinced some of the managers at the clubs mentioned have ever really had that, Moyes is unproven having never really achieved a great deal, for the right manager a club like our that offers stability is the perfect environment. In the end though the manager would need to bring his own players in as well, inevitably to make a team your own you need to get rid of some of the squad and replace it with players that fit your philosophy.

Moyes inherited a team who punched well above their weight due to the miraculous man management abilities of Ferguson, even though they won the title last season they weren't a great side, Moyes needed to bring several of his own players in to mix it up a bit, I think being stuck with largely the same squad as Ferguson was always going to end in disappointment.

Aye - the problem is indeed whether Wenger - particularly at his age and with his stubborn philosophy - can achieve the fundamental change that is needed. Your observation about Wenger is absolutely spot on - and has been magnified even more by having a majority shareholding whose very investment strategy is dependent upon Wenger being at the helm. Because while Wenger has, frankly, failed in the true football sense for the past decade - he is an investor's wet dream - and an almost unprecedented salesman of the future. There will always be jam tomorrow, even though there's none today, as a certain poster used to say!

Optimists like LDG feel that Ozil is the glue that will suddenly make his methods and his team reach their true potential. I am much more circumspect. I worry whether there is really a proper plan, or whether Ozil was a vanity purchase and bought simply because he is a prime exponent of the type of footballer that Wenger most admires. We will see - but there have been so many false dawns over the past few years that I feel the Wenger doubters can hardly be criticised. What is most likely finally to kill of the waverers like me, however, is sheer fatigue with a situation that never seems to really change.