Oh you mean they had the ability to mix up their game, something even Southampton can do?Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG
Who would have thought that ability would come in handy, certainly not Arteta obviously
:gp: btw
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Oh you mean they had the ability to mix up their game, something even Southampton can do?Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG
Who would have thought that ability would come in handy, certainly not Arteta obviously
:gp: btw
We’ve gone off the boil for sure but I don’t think winning 16 out of 19 games was a fluke. We’re a good team now but ultimately still a team that hasn’t achieved anything and probably doesn’t quite know how to handle things when it’s not going their way.Quote:
Originally Posted by 21_GOONER_SALUTE
There’s no remedy for this, just man up and deal with it if you want to dine at the top table. Title challengers don’t go 3 games without winning nor do they struggle to score goals.
Sort it out Arsenal.
Aye. You get a feeling about a title winning side, I’ve found.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Overmars
After Spurs and Utd I was getting that feeling. Those are the sorts of results you get in a title run.
But that’s all gone now. You don’t get 1 point from 9 in a title run, especially not when one of those games you lose at home to the other challenger.
I thought people were conceding the title too early after the last 2, but it’s gone now.
We really have to win the next one before it turns into a proper collapse.
Didn't say it was a fluke, but we had a healthy dose of luck on the way and clearly the points we had amassed flattered this team.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Overmars
This team consists of too many average players, which is the main point I am trying to get across anyway. I mean the only time we made the keeper work was a penalty and we had the better chances today .
BTW its clear that the coach has been pretty average too.
Yep. Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Overmars
I feel a little sorry for em in the sense that it is a team I can really get behind, but you have to learn quickly in this league, and we had some pretty good warnings before their second which should have prompted a tactical shift.
The only way you win titles is to be consistent, and we haven’t been since the Xmas break. The Newcastle draw said everything about not havinv that little extra to tip the balance. Thats what title winners do. They don’t miss two unchallenged headers right on the spot and not test the keeper.
That was the difference tonight.
I agree with most of this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
I did say I wouldn't concede till we have played City twice (initially I meant in the league), but that has occured now and both times City didn't really up their game...we just surrendered to them.
It's really been pathetic and though I won't give up, I'll be more silent about the title talk as clearly we don't have that aura of deserving champions.
Fuck it, I'll still think we can do it. :bow:
It’s still a possibility and that’s something I hope the team doesn’t forget. If we beat Villa and Leicester you would then say we’re off and running again.Quote:
Originally Posted by 21_GOONER_SALUTE
You fear for them now though unfortunately.
Massive Confirmation Bias but never had that feeling. I felt that we hadn’t been properly tested…(still haven’t come back from going a goal down away from home)….and just felt that Arteta’s idiosyncrasies and personality deficiencies would haunt us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
Losing becomes a habbit, and losing ten times in a row to City before tonight means we just don’t have that belief that we can beat them or even get a draw against them.
We had to have everything go perfectly, won the two previous games, have our strongest available XI and we had neither of these.
Also there’s an argument to be made the players just aren’t good enough. Some of them have the potential - Martinelli, Saka, Jesus, Odegaard. But there’s just things that aren’t right, Ben White has been shite for a while now, Saliba looks like he needs to be dropped, Zinchenko is stinking the place out.
And let’s be fair even Ramsdale has been poor.
Need wholesale changes for Villa
Drop Zinchenko, drop Xhaka, drop Saliba, drop Eddie
Put in the Polack defender, put in Tierney, put in Vieira behind Odegaard and have Trossard and Martinelli play interchangeable between left wing and centre forward.
The club and many of the fans still don't understand what winning means. Winners win everything. They win at the highest level and they won't let a 3 yer old beat them in a game of marbles. I saw some of the losers on here dismissing the cup match against city. Let's lose that one and then win the league. It doesn't work like that.
The Top Four mentality still holds strong.
Correct, nor is Xhaka and tbh it's a miracle Zinchenko got near titles, given how bad he's been in the last three games, I guess he's one of those players who's made to look better by who's around themQuote:
Originally Posted by LDG
So you think we are an average team based on what you have seen of us this season? Not the past few games, the entire season so far?Quote:
Originally Posted by 21_GOONER_SALUTE
Who cares what Spurs did against them or whether they look great or not? I only care about Arsenal and how we perform in the league, it’s irrelevant if Team x, y or z make City look great or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
I’m not really sure what you don’t seem to grasp about my post? I didn’t say I’m happy with the current situation, did not say I am happy with losing to City, I simply said that we are actually in a position nobody expected us to be in.
That’s unless you thought we would be in this position? Or that you expected us to be challenging for the title halfway through the season?
Aside from your posts having a touch of “I told you so”, you are not telling me anything, I didn’t expect this in the first place and never thought the squad is strong enough for a sustained title challenge, I could very well be wrong but I doubt it.
Again the point is, this city side were beatable and we contrived to mess ourselves against them…againQuote:
Originally Posted by selassie
You could have saved yourself a load of typing and just posted this in the first place. Thanks for stating the obvious.Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
The Invincibles didn’t. They crashed out of the 2 biggest cup competitions in a week.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
No-one on here wanted to lose in the Cup, but given that we were (at the time) improbably in the title race and given that our squad clearly isn’t deep enough to compete on all fronts, the league was the clear priority.
The difference is The Invincibles picked themselves up and beat Liverpool (thanks to Henry’s heroics, I have to say I was sitting there at half time feeling that it was all about to fall apart). This lot have responded to the City loss by continuing to lose.
Bother. They’re a young squad and hopefully we will continue to invest in it and improve, but I can’t help feeling it was now or never for the title with what other clubs are doing.
The exact opposite. It’s because I’d started to believe we could win the league that I saw that as the priority.Quote:
The Top Four mentality still holds strong.
Let me try and make what I am trying to say as simple as I can, if I can lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by selassie
Only Saka will walk into any starting lineup in the EPL based on his performances and more importantly his undeniable quality.
Partey is quality and would be in everyone's squad. Jesus was rejected by City but 75% of teams might take him for now.
Saliba is a WIP and a maybe.
Gabriel is slightly above average.
Everyone else I didn't mention have shown with their performances this season that they are average players that can mix it up once in a while, especially our so called Captain.
To me, their is nothing wrong with being average and playing out of your skin, as a lot of them have done for most of the season and should be lauded for. But is this what I want for Arsenal, hell no!!
I mean their lack of ability and inability to rise up to the occasion can only take us so far when we have the kind of competitors we have in the EPL, and unfortunately that might not be far enough.
In short, this crop of limited players need to be vastly improved on as a matter of urgency and it was always clear, a lot of us were just to "high" to see it
As for the coach, he is representative of this squad in every way.
We must do better.
Average compared to what, out of interest? I mean, we've been top of the league for most of the season. It would have to be a really spectacular collapse for us to finish outside the top 4.
So even in the context of the PL I don't think you could say our players are average.
It was the Spurs and Utd results which made me believe. Even in our pomp we didn't win at Spurs that often. The Invincibles famously let a 2 goal lead slip, which we can forgive them for I guess as a point was enough to see us clinch the title. We didn't win at WHL in 2001/2 either. So for all Spurs' wobbles this year, a win there was a "statement" - City have subsequently lost there. And Utd were in excellent form when they came to us. They had the late slip against Palace but they'd won the 6 before that. A draw would not have been a disaster, the win was another "statement". You just get a feeling about title winning sides and I got that feeling then.Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
The City cup result was disappointing but we made some changes and most of us agreed the league had to be the priority. It wasn't a thumping.
Everton...ok, that was a bad one. We a ridiculously poor record there, I don't know if that got in our heads. But OK, no need to panic, you're going to get results like that.
Brentford...well they were in good form too, but we really needed to win that one. VAR dicked on us, but we shouldn't be relying on stuff like that. We needed a confident win and didn't get one.
Which put all the pressure on last night, and... :(
If there's one thing I've learned about football though is that feelings change quickly and frequently during a season. We win the next couple (ha, I know, but let's just say) and City slip and things could feel different again.
But 1 point from 9 and losing to your rivals at home...those things don't really happen in a title winning season.
I get your point, but take issue with the fact you think we have a bunch of average players. I don't necessarily agree with this, I personally think our true level is somewhere between where we are now and where we were last season which in theory makes us a certified top 3 side, but not necessarily a certified title contender. Despite that we are still knee deep in a title race if we start picking up results as of Saturday.Quote:
Originally Posted by 21_GOONER_SALUTE
I personally think the likes of Saliba, Partey, Odegaard, Saka and Jesus would get in most PL sides as starters, the spine of our team is very good IMO.
I definitely agree that we need to improve the team / squad for quality depth, I have been banging on about that for a while and was disappointed with us not securing our primary targets in the January window. I think Jorginho who played well last night isn't a bad pickup, but I would have preferred Caicedo for numerous reasons.
The squad is still a work in progress, we are still a long way behind City in terms of the make up our squad and the lack of quality we have in certain positions depth wise. That's why I'm not really panicking or throwing my hands up in the air because we are only as good as the make up of the squad which is pretty much what you are saying anyway, we are just disagreeing on the choice of words average v very good etc!
Their ability and ceiling Letters, and I mean "average" in the best possible way BTW.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
I am not denigrating their effort, I mean its a miracle these limited bunch of players have achieved what they have achieved so far....it just like what Leicester did the year they won, difference being they had a determined bunch and a pretty seasoned manager who could keep them grounded and ride the inevitable waves that came along.
The thing is we are not a Leicester and our history demands that we do more and have one of the best set of players in the League who can consistently compete,we don't IMO.
This is targeted at those who believe a few tweaks will be enough to get this squad competitive for years to come.
As far as I am concerned, we still have whole lot of rebuilding to do.
I’ve seen enough that suggests we’re capable of taking this to the wire but can we deal with adversity? I’m not convinced. There’s a lot of football to be played and if, and that’s a big if currently, we rediscover some form then the title is still a possibility. End of the day we’re only behind on a goal difference with a game in hand. It’s all to play for but the problem is this vulnerability that’s crept in over the last few games.
Last night I saw a team that wilted once it became apparent what they were up against. It was like the big games during Wenger’s latter years. Mistakes galore, lack of concentration and just a real lack of belief that we could even lay a glove on them.
Liverpool were never phased like that when they faced City during their title challenges. That’s the difference.
It is nothing like Leicester! The team before this season was a top 4 contender, we should have finished top 4 last season but collapsed, maybe it was a mentality issue, but injuries played a big part. In the summer we secured Jesus and Zinchenko as starters and they most certainly added a lot of quality to an already half decent side.Quote:
Originally Posted by 21_GOONER_SALUTE
Don't get me wrong they have surprised me this season and I never expected us to be in this position, but it has not come as a complete "Leicester" style shock if you look at the progress made over the past few seasons and our recruitment and general improvement of the players already within the squad.
We are going to toe to toe with a Serial Title Winner, Leicester won it in an era where there wasn't even a dominant team in PL at the time, very very different to now.
Besides the season is not yet over, like Letters said, I started to believe after the Spurs and Man United victories but I have always sat on the fence and maintained that we would need a near perfect season to win the Title, we would need all of our best players available throughout the entire season because we simply lack quality depth options or at least seamless ones that are like for like replacements quality wise.
:gp:Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Overmars
Yeah I totally agree with this. Especially the part in bold.
So our disagreement is on our true level or our abilityQuote:
Originally Posted by selassie
I believe this team has overachieved when you look at the parts of the team individually. I firmly believe that the parts that make up City, Spurs, Chelsea, Liverpool and Man U (in that order) are clearly better than us.
Our level if I look at the parts of the team is Newcastlish.....7-11ish in the League, average.
However, Arteta's system initially got the best out of these average players and thus our Team as a unit with our style of play is where they are as this has always been a team sport- would we be further with players of the ability of Spurs and Chelsea, in my opinion we would be out of sight this season if all things were held constant.
Again my belief is that we can and should do better in personnel which is practically most of the positions in this team.
It’s an inferiority complex. I don’t believe there was a single player on that pitch in red who felt we could win that game.Quote:
Originally Posted by selassie
City are definitely better team than us, Spurs? Come on Man! Kane and Son are the only two from that side who get into our current First XI if you include Jesus and Partey. We are more organised than them and have better players than them IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by 21_GOONER_SALUTE
Chelsea is a question mark, the potential they have in their team / squad is up there with City so I think as of next season they may well be a better team than us but right now we are better than them. Liverpool depends on their recruitment this summer, right now we are definitely better than them. Man Utd I think are a top striker and top midfielder away from being a better team than us but right now I'd say we are marginally better than them, or level pegging if I take off my bias hat!
I don't agree, there is a difference between performances and ability, and Spurs and the other teams I mentioned have players with ability whose ceiling is far above our tin men like Odegaard, Xhaka and co.Quote:
Originally Posted by selassie
Again we are where we are because most of the team is playing beyond its ability and giving laudable performances, the same way every unbiased pundit have kept insisting the others are playing below their ability which is why they have faltered....anyway our situation is not sustainable in such a demanding league and can only get us so far.
To think we're currently proving idiots like Neville and Keane right :smh:
Odegaard and Xhaka both walk into Spurs first XI IMO. Spurs midfield consists of the likes of Bentancur (good player) Pepe Sarr (average), Hojberg (average), Bissouma (average) and Oliver Skipp (clogger). They don't even play with an attacking midfielder / creative midfielder, their Midfield is a complete mess.Quote:
Originally Posted by 21_GOONER_SALUTE
Yeah don’t agree with that re: Spurs
Our goalkeeper is better than Lloris, our defence is better than theirs, our central midfield is poor (Partey aside) but so is theirs, I think Saka is better than Kulusevski, Martinelli better than Richarlison. Son and Kane are the only two players that make them on a similar level to us…clearly both better than what we have up front.
prior to the Everton game I thought we'd give Citeh a really good game but we've collapsed as Letters says.Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
on the points people are making about the squad I actually think it's better than Spuds for sure, Chelsea is hard to say as they're all over the place - Man Utd have some very good players and clearly a manager who can turn things around.
While we're not really comparable in lots of ways, it's worth looking at Leicester City who obviously won a title out of the blue - firstly they had some very good players (e.g. Vardy, Kante) who, crucially, stayed fit through the season and secondly created a great team spirit.
We have been unlucky with injuries, particularly re attacking options - Nelson, Jesus and ESR all out at the same time
I think Arteta has created a better spirit at the club but I fear he is a bit robotic with his team structure and it's starting to show - his failure to switch formations, try different things when Plan A isn't working is a real issue.
Martinelli's a good example, I actually don't think he's having a dip in form as such, I just don't think he's being used intelligently enough.
Arteta gets slavishly attached to some players, we've seen it with Xhaka and now Zin and Eddie, both of whom are failing now but being played time and time again without even being subbed during the game.
Arteta's inexperience and intansigence is for me our biggest weakness, another coach could win the title with these guys, a lot of them are extremely talented.
He can now put this Citeh game behind him and use these last three games as a lesson in how sticking to what you think is your best 11 isn't always the best policy.
We won't win the league now and I think even second is a big challenge - it's essentially all about top four IMO
To reinvigorate the team Arteta needs to cut loose a bit and start changing things.
I thought when Vieira came on, he and Trossard really started to create some quicker moves and be more incisive - the game was already gone by then of course (an example of Arteta using his subs too late btw)
Tomi messed up a bit and I think White wil come back
I agree with your suggested team changes though I'm not sure Saliba's any worse than Gabriel who was lucky not to concede a pel yesterday- we need something like this against Villa:
Ram
White
The new Polish guy
Saliba
Tierney
Georginio
Odegaard
Vieira
Saka
Trossard
Martinelli
Quote:
Originally Posted by selassie
When it comes to Spurs I take it most gooners can't be impartial for even a second.
Anyway the stats show they don't play City and lose woefully every single time and have finished ahead of us on the league for the last few years with these "inferior" players... but lets not let that stop us from being a bit rational.
Anyway I'd prefer we stop deflecting and actually get back to looking at the ability of our players individually.
I like your post, we clearly need to shake things up , I'm just losing faith that there is much room to do so because of our players obvious limitations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac76
Anyway, Arteta needs to earn his keep and do something different till our game changers get back from injury. Lets see if he'll bother.
It’s not about impartiality, I think our overall squad is better than theirs currently. Son and Kane are the only two players who are objectively better than anyone we have in the same position.Quote:
Originally Posted by 21_GOONER_SALUTE
They have a lot of decent players for sure, but I prefer where we are in terms of squad development than them. Yes you’re right they are capable of beating City where we are not, but as awful as our record is…Spurs have an awful record against countless other teams (not beaten Liverpool since 2017, not beaten Chelsea in the league since 2018, have lost their last four league games against Man United)
Yes they’ve finished above us since 2017, but that’s not likely happening this season
Agree, although I do worry that if our freefall lasts much longer and they pick up form, it could be closer than we'd like, but getting back to the point, pure talent-wise we have a better team IMOQuote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
Agree to disagree ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by 21_GOONER_SALUTE
I don't get it. Partey is absolute shite. A clueless plodder who has no appreciation of what's happening on the pitch. He loses the ball in key situations so many times. I mean he's better than some of the shit we've had in the middle, but that's not saying much. But he's still nowhere near basic standard. It's a mystery how people can't see him dithering helplessly on the ball, panicking and turning forward play into last ditch defence with one horrible attempt at a pass. He's useless in defensive play in the box too. I guess provided you can run for 90 minutes and occasionally fluke a volley or hit a 99% stat in sideways passing it makes muster with the diminished standards.Quote:
Originally Posted by 21_GOONER_SALUTE
Aren't you one of the... fans who wanted a quick out from the cup? Against City, no less? Forgive me if I'm wrong, I don't pay much attention to the flip-flop shite spewing out of the goldfish brigade. You want to roll over in one match and then prevail in the next? Lose to win? Doesn't make sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac76
Winners win, though they can sometimes come up against other winners and then one of those winners has to lose. It's all in the mentality. When you throw a match to win the next you threw a lot more than the result. Losing is a habit too.
Used to be that the same 11 played in every match, wind, rain or snow. Proper men. Now we have these modern players. Of course they can't compete on all fronts. That would be hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
Difference between the Invincibles and whatever crap has been shat onto the field in the years since, The former took to the field and expected to win. That latter take to the field and hope to win. The former is about belief. That latter is a maybe, of a what-if, or a perhaps. Yeah, if other teams fuck up we might fluke a title. But let's face it, what we're really after is the Top Four Trophy. Now the habitual collapse has commenced I doubt even that's a possibility.
Is it fluke if another team win the title if we fuck up?Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
Point re the 11 playing come what may. Whilst I get the poor pampered rich kids thing…in fairness, the game’s athleticism has moved on considerably from the good old days. I’m sure you’d be able to keep up though?