Er...Yes. I assume this would not have led to the world not turning or a more competent manager showing up. I think a novice shoed up at stamford Bridge the same year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syn
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Er...Yes. I assume this would not have led to the world not turning or a more competent manager showing up. I think a novice shoed up at stamford Bridge the same year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syn
Yeah, that's fair enough. I wouldn't want to reduce it purely to a financial argument. But the correlation between transfer expenditure, wage expenditure and league performance is such that I don't believe it should be overlooked as often as it is, just to put more on the manager's head. And that is relevant to your point about Wenger's management standard. Especially given the extremes we're dealing with here. I would still maintain that the alternatives being speculated on here are bigged up past their abilities. But I understand you being jaded. It's a poor situation however you look at it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syn
You're such a liar. :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Globalgunner
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bendtner
So true, how many players do you think we'd need?
Who knows? It's not quantity that's an issue. But I made the Hazard point because of the obviously substandard players supporting Van Persie right now. A really good central midfielder replacing Fabregas and we'd be controlling more games. You could probably make the point for a few positions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie the Gooner
Did I read that table right? Villa & Sunderland have spent twice as much as us in the last 5 years, Bolton more, Fulham the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bendtner
But then - Boro and West Ham have both spent 20 odd million more than us - Brum & Pompey the same (must catch the back end of 'Arry's deals).
I don't doubt the table but cannot see how Middlesboro have spent £103 million on players since 2006 and us only 85. Who the **** did they buy?
Funny how you weren't speaking up about it earlier. Did you share your desire for him to leave back in 2004.
If you did, what reaction did you get?
I want Wenger out, but I'm pretty sure I've never heard of anyone thinking they'd like rid in 2004.
I brook many opinions - but yours in this instant is 'out there' and one I've never heard expressed before anywhere.
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Originally Posted by Globalgunner
The Middlesbrough thing looks ropey. No idea. Must admit I didn't look specifically at the figures. But it appears they may have botched a few. You'd be alright to doubt the table to be fair. I'd still make a point along the same lines, but obviously not as well reinforced.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gubby Allen
On a related sub-topic, for those who want him out, when did you move past the point of no return?
For me it was when we bottled the NLD at home last year. I felt that to throw away another lead in a game of that magnitude was just unforgivable - especially given as it had already happened 2 years earlier in the same fixture. I knew for sure then that the manager had built a team who simply could not be trusted at all.
I wanted him gone before but the point of no return came during the August 2010 transfer window.
When he decided to give Johan Djorou a new contract, kind off showed me maybe his is happy with mediocrite (sp) and we don't need a manager like that. This was the final straw for me tbh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Overmars
I was very early, one of the first after Zimm and in a minority at that point - but I saw where we were going and it was pretty much this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Overmars
Although admittedly I clocked in about 2008 that we were never winning another trophy under AW again, I never even changed my mind on the morning of the CC final last year but it took me about a season to move from that to actually wanting him to go.
It was the CC final (and few days eithr side of it) last year where I first really started to dislike him and the current club - as much as you can dislike your own club.
If you forget the first million years and just think of the last 7, what would be your conclusion? I know that's very hard on Arsene but this is a hard business. We should not be starting the 2012-13 season thinking a trophy is impossible. But if Wenger is in charge, does anybody think otherwise?
I can't dislike him but the Carling Cup final was the point where I realised that Wenger is championing a load of mentally fragile players. I wouldn't have been upset if Wenger had been sacked well before then, but that was the point where I thought that there was a serious mental block that was never going to be removed with Wenger in charge. What made is more transparent from previous years was Wilshere's performance. He seemed to be the only one who knew the value of playing in a Wembley Cup final and he worked his bollocks off, popping up everywhere and was denied a wundergoal by the woodwork. I go on about him but that's because last season I felt Wilshere was the only one representing the fans. He didn't deserve to be on the losing team and he didn't deserve to be playing alongside the players he was. So I think the club (and fans) need a manager who will build a team with balls.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gubby Allen
Wigan game April 2010Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Overmars
We had just lost to Spuds the wednesday before to knock our title hopes but Spuds then go and beat Chelsea the weekend after meaning we could get right back in. We play shit but somehow lead 2-0. Wigan score 3 in last 10 minutes and the rest as they say is history
Yeah, that was a bad one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ach
From 2006-2010, some will say it was acceptable as we all knew the aim was to challenge for the league, but finishing in the top 4 was not bad. But from 2010-now. You'd have to say its been a disaster and we should of won something in the last 3 years and Projet youth should have got off the ground.Quote:
Originally Posted by notwist
Yep i remeber that we got battred by Barca and once again a defeat in the CL cause a collapsed in the league, which has happend again in the last 2 seasonsQuote:
Originally Posted by Ach
Its not that the vile and anger towards Arsene came out just because he is not winning. Its the way he takes the fans for a ride with his BS that has got him to this position. Ex: Waiting period, 2% from domination, super quality players, the way he handled Cesc's and Nasri's transfer, his 100% support of the 'suspected' vision of the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
The last part is bold because that is the most important one. Currently we have 2 scenarios that is bringing our club down- Either its AW completely losing it OR it is the board tearing up this club for their own benefit and desire. I think its the former BUT for a second, lets say the later is true. My problem here is AW's uni-vocal support for that shit. Why would a 'football' manager openly support the daylight looting of a club he is managing.. he can quit any second! Its not like he will be a poor man tomorrow for it or have a tough time finding a job.
I know quite a few have said that there is no doubt that AW loves the club and cares dearly for it... how do you know that? If he did, he wouldnt back the owners. You dont think that it would be better if he quit and gave a press conference a day or a week later citing his constant battle with the board regarding player transfers? You dont think the fans would go up in arms together (for a change) and revolt against this board? This also saves his legacy as of one of the greatest Arsenal managers ever... BUT guess what he is doing? He is the mouth piece of the board AND thats why my friend, I call him whatever I call him and he absolutely 100% deserves it!
I dont think Wenger should go. I love him too much. Ive also yet to read one single post that convinces me the alternative would be any better.
If you love Wenger so much why don't you marry him?...or get a civil partnership or whatever the equivalent is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dog Toffee
I would if I could. Maybe il just stalk him and he'd have to get an injunction out on me.
Well don't be disheartened or put off by the injunction, no good stalker worth his salt would do that!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dog Toffee
Because he signed a contract and he has integrity. He has shown that throughout his career.Quote:
Originally Posted by fakeyank
As for whether he loves the club, you can see that however much our decline is hurting us it's hurting him more. You can SEE it. Look at him on the touchline, he's in pain. Whether he's the right man to do anything about it, I agree he isn't. But whether anyone else can with our idiot board is highly debatable.
I don't think he backs the owners any more than he really thinks our squad is super, super quality. But he's not going to say anything publicly. Maybe he should but if nothing else he's a man of principle.
whatever one says about the board and their financial "i drink your milkshake" stance towards the club, i don't think it's responsible for the paucity of performances on the pitch. Win or lose is one thing, but to have no fight, no ideas and be bashing our heads against the proverbial brick wall season in season out like we have under this man is completely down to one man.
I don't think we lack fight right now. We lack ability.
I disagree, i think we lack both ability and fight....i don't think a single sunderland player is better than any of the players we had on the pitch last night, we are average and they are even more average but they had fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
In the past we just lacked fight
It's not the right conversation. This team looks totally different from the Carling Cup collapse team but we have the se problems. The symptoms go all the way back Henry's days as Captaon, the Gallas era, Cesc's and now RVP's. Lack of ability is one thing, but there was a distinct lack of effort over the past couple of games. Milan was criminal. It shouldn't take a superstar players to fix this and in fact, I think Wenger would have a much harder time telling a superstar player to track back and defend because they can be the most difficult when it comes to that sort of thing and it takes a strong coach to get them to work hard on defence otherwise they'd take the piss and stay up front all day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie
Whilst i agree what goes on the pitch is down to the manager, but in a way if the board are not relasing transfer money to him Then it is down to them. The team is not good enough thats the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie
Its not about their players not being better then ours its being a team and we suck as one. The team needed investment to make it much better and once you have a balanced team coaching becomes easier.
This was the last chance to win a trophy, something the players keep banging on about, they really should not need a manager to motivate them in it, at HT they should have pumped themselves up, but they could not.
A manager can only motivate a team so far in his control.
Mmm. Maybe you're right :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie
Although there was a phase this season, after the disastrous start, where we seemed to be getting it together and they did look like a decent side there for a while who had a bit of fight about them. Now, I just don't know :(
Because the pressure was off, as soon as we maneuvered ourselves into a position of respectability that's when the shit results started kicking in, we got 4th on new years eve and then lost three games afterwards.......a team tends to always take on the characteristics of it's manager, and this team has no character.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
The team is nowhere near being good enough, but it is better than how it performs under pressure situations.
The more they talk about 'fight' and showing 'response to a poor performance' the more you should cash in and back against them. If we had acted as cold hearted punters over the past 4 years or more, rather than Arsenal fans, based upon predictions reguarly made on this forum, we'd be fairly well off individuals.
I don't think there is any conflict between Wenger and the board. If they're trying to milk is dry they have to complete morons to not look at that wage bill and think that's the biggest bleeder of money that needs rectifying. It makes no sense selling everything you own to pay off a bill when your outgoings continue to go up and up year on year. We're seeing a mismanagement of funds from the management and it's evident from the wage bill and the fact that guys like Djourou get offered a new contract and if RVP isn't offered what it will take for him to stay here, then you have to llook back at DJ's extension and question the logic behind this policy.Quote:
Originally Posted by fakeyank
If the wage bill was going down along with the quality of players we had, then I could agree when people say we're getting raped by the owners. But whoever is looking at the books and telling Wenger to sell players for profits must have spotted the £100m wage bill and I would have thought that would have been on the agenda to lower. Before extending Djourou's contract someone should be prodding him on the shoulder and asking whether he's sure he wants to extend and injury prone useless squad player's contract when our captain and top scorer still hasn't signed his.
It's a flawed strategy we have here. Walcott is 22 and close to hitting the 100k a week mark. We're overspending on shit players and someone has to spot this flaw. I don't think there is any conflict between the Board and manager on spending. Financially prudent people are able to spot this sort of shit and know that you can't keep selling assets to maintain. You have to lower the bills somehow.
Whilst i agree AW cares for the club highly, I don't think he cares for football anymore, well thats what i see when i look at him, i don't see the motivation that i say in the vidro that Coney posted in another thread. For me this transfers to the players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
I want to see that Wenger that used to give it to fergie, and chav managers. I want to see that Wenger who gave it to Jol and Pardew. Not this lonley shell off a man who looks like he as Just gambled his house away and is in the shit with his missus.
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Originally Posted by Letters
To be honest Lettets, I was really thinking that we had got that fighting spirit back and that we wete becoming a more balanced team and that a decent base was being formed but the fight started to get knocked out of us over December and it looks like we know not how to get it back!
It is no coincidence that it happens to us again and again at the same stage of the season. . .I have resisted for so long to call for Wenger to go, well have been conservative in the way I put it but even if we didnt lose another game all season, I would still have to say that it would be best handing the reigns over. . . .
A lot will dance a merry dance but it will do nothing but hurt to see Wenger go, especially in such circumstances
Yep as much as most want him out, don't think any gooner really hates him deep down we will all be sad to see him go even if its only the 2% in us that does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Japan Shaking All Over
Agree he should hand in that letter too, whatever happend, next season should be a new start lets build from there.
I did say it was too early to judge the character of this team. It's no different to what we've seen in the past. Around this stage we always fall apart. We always pick up injuries and always look jaded.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
And when Real sacked thoses managers we have wondered what the hell they were doing?Quote:
Originally Posted by Globalgunner
You use our bottling the CL but that would never have been reason to sack Wenger in 2004, as the team had just shown how strong it was and that we had every reason to believe we would get another bite at the cherry!
We arent as heartless as the likes of Real, who care nothing (in hindsight maybe we should have been) . .but I do wonder about your claim to have had the notion that we should have rid ourselves of Wenger after achieving something no other team had done and at the same time won the league doing so!
wenger leaving might be the only way to get back to a sensible wage structure where the kids are paid like kids and top players like top players. cant see a new manager agreeing to put the next bendtner on 52k a week.
but youd expect the next manger to have much less power so maybe he wouldnt be able to effect change on that matter.
How Can it be his fault that Lehman got sent off did he tell him to be stupid, all that Henry instead of showing of missing 2 1 on 1's did he tell henry to miss them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Globalgunner
Wenger did all he could in that came to motivate the team it was the players who failed that day.