Has Wenger faiiled to develop our young players?

[Power n Glory]

Has Wenger failed to develop our young players? I’m talking the academy level players. The kids that turn up around the age of 16 – 18. I think Wenger has proven his chops when it comes to improving more established players or those in their early 20s but when it comes to the very raw players, the blank canvas types, I think it’s worth looking at his record. He’s been here for a long time and I think it’s fair to say we’ve produced underwhelming players. Seeing the flaws in Ox’s game and Ramsey’s during the SToke game sparked this conversation. In fact, NQ made a point in the match thread.

Theo USED to have that fluidity to his game. Ox USED to have that fluidity to his game. Ramsey USED to have that fluidity to his game. That's why we got all excited about their potential. Wenger will coach it out of Iwobi too. Can it really be that all these players just aren't up to scratch? The Arshavins, Velas, Podolskis, Afobes, Gnabrys, Akpoms. The Wilsheres. Yeah, the majority won't make the top level but who has Wenger really made? Henry, Bergkamp, Pires, Ozil? These are self made players. Alexis is another one. The old back four, George Graham's. Campbell? Coquelin? Wenger wanted rid. Chambers was on fire when he first arrived, now he's burnt to a crisp. I hear Monsieur is thinking about signing back a Turkish kid he got rid of who, lo and behold, has suddenly found his feet in spectacular fashion - at another club. I believed Ox was going to be the next big thing in football when I first saw him play. Now look at him. Well on the way to becoming the next Theo Walcott.

One common factor.

We know these players can pass, move, perform at pace. We've seen them score and participate in some of the best goals you'll ever see. The talent is there. But look at Ox, is he a winger or a central midfielder? Ramsey, same question. Walcott, same question. I'm shocked Wenger didn't start Cech on the wing when he first arrived. Wenger is all about slamming square pegs in round holes. Playing tactics that disadvantage us and favour the opposition. Playing systems that isolate and put our players under pressure. We put in a decent performance, what, about 1 in 8 games now? That's because Wenger's one-trick pony is bound to find suitable opposition every once in a while.

We played right into Stoke's hands yesterday. Of course. Never once utilised the advantages we had over them. Played that ponderous crappy style that Wenger loves so much. We lost the key player who can make Wenger's tippy tappy flow with a purpose. What we really saw yesterday was another example of the players not being able to make Wenger's crackpot system work. But I bet they'd be twice as effective under a manager who could knit them into a team rather than leave them isolated as individuals. Great spirit, Wenger said. Well great passing, great movement, great purpose, those would be useful too.

This season he's being propped up by the general decline in standards across the league and the fallout from the mercenary cultures at chavland and gypoland. People are confusing this with Wenger being a decent manager. He's not. Hasn't been for a long time.

Decent bloke, of course. Decent manager? Watch us play and decide.

Thoughts? Is this accurate?

[Marc Overmars]

I think it's a fair point to raise. With the exception of Ramsey who is obviously a better player now, I don't think we have any other players schooled by Wenger that look better 3-5 years down the line than when they entered the first team set up.

Give Wenger an ordinary player beyond his formative years and he'll most likely elevate their game to a new level, not sure he has that midas touch with youngsters who may not necessarily be the most naturally gifted and require a lot of coaching.

It will be interesting to see how Bellerin turns out in a few years.

[hobson's choice]

I think it's a fair point to raise. With the exception of Ramsey who is obviously a better player now, I don't think we have any other players schooled by Wenger that look better 3-5 years down the line than when they entered the first team set up.

Give Wenger an ordinary player beyond his formative years and he'll most likely elevate their game to a new level, not sure he has that midas touch with youngsters who may not necessarily be the most naturally gifted and require a lot of coaching.

It will be interesting to see how Bellerin turns out in a few years.

Other than goal scoring how has Ramsey improved as CM, not a particular good passer, lacks discipline, cant control a game. Doesnt understand how to set an attack from the CM position at all. Our midfield has look downright garbage at times when he's part of the midfield 2.

[mastermind84]

Other than goal scoring how has Ramsey improved as CM, not a particular good passer, lacks discipline, cant control a game. Doesnt understand how to set an attack from the CM position at all. Our midfield has look downright garbage at times when he's part of the midfield 2.

Ramsey aint been that good (altho he was really good against Stoke) but Flamini is the bigger problem. He has no legs and is afraid of the ball.

[Power n Glory]

Other than goal scoring how has Ramsey improved as CM, not a particular good passer, lacks discipline, cant control a game. Doesnt understand how to set an attack from the CM position at all. Our midfield has look downright garbage at times when he's part of the midfield 2.

I fear Ramsey is following in the same footsteps as Cesc Fabregas in terms of development. Different players with different attributes but it seems as though all the focus on their development went on scoring more goals and everything else got pushed to the wayside. Cesc was a great passer and could control the game from the midfield. He should have been a Xavi or Pirlo. His biggest weakness was the defensive discipline but Wenger had no interest in tightening that part of his game up it seems. Instead of keeping him as a CM, teaching discipline in his movement, working hard to win the ball back, he pushed him up field to a number 10 role so he could get more goals and not have to defend. So that effected how we controlled games because he wasn’t further down the pitch dictating the tempo of a game. Neglecting that side of his game effected his career at Barca and Pep didn’t trust him as CM so he’d play as a striker!

Now I see a similar pattern with Ramsey. As you rightly point out, it’s just the goal scoring that’s improved and everything else about his game hasn’t. He’s not a good passer of the ball and he has no positional awareness. You’re right about him not knowing how to set up an attack from the CM and that’s why Rosicky and Cazorla are so much better at it than him. But it seems like we have no interest in developing that side of his game. It’s why I question him getting played on the wing and Wenger praising the quality of his runs. That’s great but can we at least get him functioning as a CM that can control the flow of the game? He has a terrific engine and not afraid of making a tackle. I worry about his development because it looks like a similar pattern.

Way too much focus on scoring goals for some players. You only have to look at Ozil’s comments today about adding more goals to his game. Or take Walcott as another example where all wing play and build has been neglected and he’s just allowed to hang on the shoulder of defenders making runs all day instead of actually getting in the ball and dribbling. The balance just isn’t right when you look at it.

[Özim]

I fear Ramsey is following in the same footsteps as Cesc Fabregas in terms of development. Different players with different attributes but it seems as though all the focus on their development went on scoring more goals and everything else got pushed to the wayside. Cesc was a great passer and could control the game from the midfield. He should have been a Xavi or Pirlo. His biggest weakness was the defensive discipline but Wenger had no interest in tightening that part of his game up it seems. Instead of keeping him as a CM, teaching discipline in his movement, working hard to win the ball back, he pushed him up field to a number 10 role so he could get more goals and not have to defend. So that effected how we controlled games because he wasn’t further down the pitch dictating the tempo of a game. Neglecting that side of his game effected his career at Barca and Pep didn’t trust him as CM so he’d play as a striker!

Now I see a similar pattern with Ramsey. As you rightly point out, it’s just the goal scoring that’s improved and everything else about his game hasn’t. He’s not a good passer of the ball and he has no positional awareness. You’re right about him not knowing how to set up an attack from the CM and that’s why Rosicky and Cazorla are so much better at it than him. But it seems like we have no interest in developing that side of his game. It’s why I question him getting played on the wing and Wenger praising the quality of his runs. That’s great but can we at least get him functioning as a CM that can control the flow of the game? He has a terrific engine and not afraid of making a tackle. I worry about his development because it looks like a similar pattern.

Way too much focus on scoring goals for some players. You only have to look at Ozil’s comments today about adding more goals to his game. Or take Walcott as another example where all wing play and build has been neglected and he’s just allowed to hang on the shoulder of defenders making runs all day instead of actually getting in the ball and dribbling. The balance just isn’t right when you look at it.

Wenger has no interest in the defensive side of the game, he just thinks about the offensive side, his comments a number of years ago about more points for goals highlight this, Barcelona turning up with their tippy tappy football many years ago was the worst thing that could have happened to us because Wenger has taken this as the blueprint and put all of our focus on attack (although they also had a very hard working team, even if they did look vulnerable defensively at times).

Football is about more than attacking, a solid defensive unit is sometimes required to snatch results when you're not playing well. The irony is offensively we're nowhere near as good as we could be either.

[Power n Glory]

It seems that way. You can see a pattern in the sort of young players he's helped develop. It's fine to focus on a player like Ozil getting goals although I find it odd that Ozil has spoken out in public to contradict Wenger. See below.

http://www.fourfourtwo.com/news/i-do...s-my-game-ozil

[Letters]

Gabriel, Chambers and Cech are 3 of his most recent signings.
I generally agree he is more attach minded but he's signed a 'keeper and 2 defensive players in the last year or so.

[I am invisible]

I think we're very much approaching this from the POV of the player, and what they regard as their best position - from that perspective then, yeah, you'd have to look at it and say that we're not really adding much to their games, or coaching any new abilities into them.

However, I'm not sure this is how Wenger looks at it - I think he sees it from a more functional, 'play to your strengths' perspective, and will try to find a player a role in the side based on what they're best at (which isn't always what the player thinks they're best at, or where they thought they'd be playing)? Coquelin's probably the most recent example, albeit a fairly subtle one - by all accounts, he was trying to play beyond his ability as a central midfielder, and was losing his way by trying to add too much attacking play to his game until Wenger took him to one side and told him to just focus on the defensive side of the job. Thankfully he took it on board, and he's now focussing on doing one job to a world class standard before he starts pissing around with anything else.

Generally speaking, I think the success stories are the players who are humble and honest enough to accept our assessment (or reassessment) of their abilities, and who embrace the role we give them. And the ones who fail to make any significant impact are the ones who never quite find a place in the side: either they never fully accept the job that we give them, and their ego (or entourage!) tell them that they're destined for other things (sadly all too common with a lot of these teenage millionaires); or they simply don't have any one skill or attribute that makes them anything special, and we never really find a specific job for them beyond being a bit of a utility man (there's still a good career to be had in that, but it probably won't be a glamorous one)?

[Letters]

How much of a player's development is in the manager or coach's hands anyway?
Surely the player needs to have the innate ability.
Are our players going elsewhere and then becoming real superstars? If so then maybe we are hindering their development. If not then maybe they're just not that good to begin with. And the reason for that is surely that at most clubs most young players fail to make it to the very top. If they did then the standard of the PL would surely be a lot higher than it is.